[Dev] Planned Adjustments And Enmity System Explanation

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[Dev] Planned Adjustments and Enmity System Explanation
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 Bahamut.Sytev
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By Bahamut.Sytev 2013-02-20 07:23:36  
Sylph.Mirvana said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
02-19-2013 06:15 PM
[source]
Akihiko Matsui
Dev Team

Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

In other words, when a player takes the same amount of damage as their max HP, enmity decays by everything, because you are now dead.
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Had to fix this one ^_^ (Unless you seriously only lose 1 voke's worth of hate from getting pancaked)
It actually raises (pun intended) a serious question - at what point is emnity loss calculated? Before or after damage reducing effects, and if before, which ones?
 Fenrir.Slycer
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By Fenrir.Slycer 2013-02-20 12:24:01  
It's already known that enmity loss (CE loss, called damage-volatile enmity here) is calculated from the damage you take. If you don't take the damage or take less damage for any reason (Phalanx, Stoneskin, DT-, etc.) the amount of enmity you shed is based only on the amount your HP is reduced. Using Stoneskin to prevent CE loss was a fundamental part of many of the enmity tests that were previously done.

As far as the quote from Matsui, the implication was that if you take an accumulated damage equal to your max HP, you will shed 1800 enmity. He did not mean taking all the damage at once.
 Sylph.Mirvana
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By Sylph.Mirvana 2013-02-20 18:45:27  
Oh I got what he meant, but the translation's wording is still humorous. :3
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2013-02-20 19:02:00  
It's been a long time so I'm likely mistaken, but as far as I recall your enmity doesn't actually get reset when you die unless you were the prime target of the monster at your time of death (or that their action directly causes your death? One or the other); ie such that if you die to an AoE ability where you are not the prime target, you still retain some enmity.

/takingjoketooseriously
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-21 12:15:40  
Thought this thread got deleted for a second, instead it was pinned. Aelius why you confuse me? D:

Anyways Mocchi talks about it a bit since Matsui was busy.



Mocchi: Responses on Enmity

Thank you for all of your posts! Along with Matsui, I read all of the information in your replies.

Today, although Matsui was supposed to write some replies, a bunch of things came up and he didn't really have time to do so, so I'll be posted for him a bit.

Because I'm just writing up his responses from when we spoke earlier, there may be some missing or incorrect info. (Sorry in advance if this is the case, I'll correct it later).

For more details, please hang on a bit for Matsui to write up a response. Hope you understand!

Quote:
Guy's wondering what they plan on doing from a development perspective, saying it's probably going to take a long time to think about it.

We want to avoid the current situation where the enmity remains stuck at the cap (= enmity control mechanism is not functioning well).

Since we wanted to receive everyone's feedback and respond first, we didn't go into too much detail on that part.

Sorry if there was not enough information!

Quote:
Guy talking about standard damage calculations, pointing out two problems and his ideas for solutions:
Ideas
1) Time-Volatile Enmity (VE) decay can't keep up with the enmity increase
2) High damage WS yields as much enmity as 2-4 Provokes
Solutions
1) Set new standard damage from 76 on, using a new calculation that takes into account haste and multi-attacks
2) Make enmity accumulation from WS and possibly elemental magic FIXED rather than variable with damage.

In our original post, we listed your proposed improvement for 1) as one of the items that we are actually working on.

For enmity, we are considering a number of proposals and how to coordinate them with other updates. We do not want to pack too many changes into one update as then we run the risk of creating new issues. So, as the first part of the enmity update, we would like to set the new "standard damage" velues at the release of Seekers of Adoulin.

For 2), Matsui's response was "I didn't have much time to polish my initial response, so it was mostly just my rough first impressions on what needed to be adjusted and how to do it."

Translated by: Slycer
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-21 12:57:24  
Camate said:
Greetings everyone!

Thanks for all the posts thus far. We’ve been forwarding them to Producer Matsui who has been reading each and every one. He was planning to make a post last night, but unfortunately he was unable to secure the time, so for the time being I will post in place of him. With that said, the man himself will post in more detail once he has the right amount of free time.

For those of you who took the time to read over the entire post, I think you generally got a good understanding of how the system works, but might have been left feeling “okay, I got it, but what are you guys gonna do?”

To put it really simply, we will be making it so that players do not get stuck at the enmity cap in battle anymore (the current situation where the enmity control system is not functioning properly). Apologies if the main basis of our adjustment plan was not clearly spelled out.

While we have seen a good amount of suggestions for ways to adjust this, we are taking them all into consideration and have various other adjustment plans in mind, but to start out we will first be setting a new standard damage value when Seekers of Adoulin is released. The main reasoning for this is that if we were to cram all of the adjustments in at once, we wouldn’t really have a grasp of where the problems are coming from.
 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2013-03-01 12:24:43  
Lakshmi.Rearden said: »
Asura.Deadwing said: »
Have enmity generated decrease logarithmically as total enmity is gained-- problem solved. The people on the top of the hate list will be there because they've really generated the most hate.

Giving a specific job a higher total enmity than any other is really cheap and potentially really game breaking.
Considering modern MMO's don't have enmity caps...how is it any different? You're playing a 10 year old game, lol. They have their limitations and have to work within them.

any value in any game has a cap. no computer can count to infinte
 Asura.Aikchan
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By Asura.Aikchan 2013-03-01 13:15:20  
Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said: »
Lakshmi.Rearden said: »
Asura.Deadwing said: »
Have enmity generated decrease logarithmically as total enmity is gained-- problem solved. The people on the top of the hate list will be there because they've really generated the most hate.

Giving a specific job a higher total enmity than any other is really cheap and potentially really game breaking.
Considering modern MMO's don't have enmity caps...how is it any different? You're playing a 10 year old game, lol. They have their limitations and have to work within them.

any value in any game has a cap. no computer can count to infinte

but they can make the increment so small that can take so much time to hit cap that can be nearly impossible to hit it before the NM/Boss/any mob die
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-03-15 12:35:55  
03-15-2013 09:39 AM
[BG source]
Slycer
BG Translator

Hello, it's Matsui.

We've been incredibly busy with preparations for the release of "Seekers of Adoulin," so I'm sorry that I've had to reduce the number of posts I've been making recently.

Content related to "Seekers of Adoulin" will be discussed in a separate post - this time, I'm writing about the adjustments that will be introduced in the March 28 version update [[March 27 NA time]].

  • Enmity Adjustment
    We will make the initial adjustments that we discussed in the post about enmity. If the target is level 51 or higher, the enmity generated will be reduced in proportion to damage dealt. If the level of the target is higher than 99, it will be reduced to about 30% of the amount before the adjustment (the current value). At the same time, we will also adjust the spell Cure V so that it generates less enmity.

  • Adjusting the Attack/Defense Ratio
    We posted previously about future adjustments to the overall battle system. Here, I will discuss adjustments to be made in reference to the item "regarding defense." Post-adjustment, if the defense power of the player is extremely low compared to the monster target's attack power, the amount of damage received will be increased compared to before.

    Example:
    Attacking Monster's DMG: 100
    Attacking Monster's Attack power: 1000
    Defense Power: 250

    Prior to adjustment: Target takes ~200 damage
    After the adjustment: Target takes ~400 damage
    *I have simplified the calculation in order to provide a clear example.

    In conjunction, we will also update the following two points:
    1) The maximum value of attack/defense ratio will be adjusted so that it is the same for one-handed and two-handed weapons.
    2) The defense down penalty of Counterstance will be reduced.

  • Perfect Defense and Embrava
    We have previously posted on the topic of Perfect Defense and Embrava adjustments. The adjustments have not changed from what previously posted. Rather than having to check the old post, I will again summarize the adjustments here. These adjustments go hand-in-hand with the battle content adjustments which are separately listed below.

    Embrava
    *Duration: 5 minutes -> 90 seconds
    *Haste: 1% per 15 enhancing skill -> 1% per 20 enhancing skill
    *Regain -> Refresh

    Perfect Defense
    *Duration: 90 seconds -> 30 seconds + 1 second per 20 summoning magic skill

    Regarding the previous post about adjustments to be made to battle content overall, we will adjust the content in the "regarding content" item as described below.

  • Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
    The level of monsters that appear will be adjusted
    *Floors 1~19: Reduced by 10 levels
    *Floors 20~39: Reduced by 7 levels
    *Floors 40~59: Reduced by 4 levels
    *Floors 60~79: Reduced by 2 levels
    *Floors 80~100: Unchanged

    *Note that this change also applies to notorious monsters.

    We will also be adjusting the attributes of certain notorious monsters which only appear in Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey. By selecting magic attacks or the attack type (based on weapon attributes) which targets a monster's weakness, the damage dealt will be even higher than before the adjustment.

  • Legion
    For the monsters that appear in Legion, we have made adjustments that reduce stats such as the defense, attack power, and HP of the various monsters. We have also added weaknesses to certain monsters at the same time. By targeting a monster's weakness, it will be easier to defeat than before.

  • Einherjar
    We have made adjustments that reduce stats such as the defense, attack power, and HP of Odin who appears in Odin's Chamber II.

  • Voidwatch
    We will increase the effectiveness of the "void cluster" key items to include Provenance battles.

  • Walk of Echoes
    We will reduce the levels of monsters that appear and remove the EX attribute from various coins and pouches. We will also add pouches for Devious Dice and Liminal Residue.

  • Salvage
    The drop rate of level 35 items has been reviewed, and in Bhaflau Remnants, level 35 items will be adjusted to drop from additional monsters which appear within the area.

  • Adjustments to Twilight Scythe
    The non-attribute damage effect of Twilight Scythe will be changed to an enhancement on the weapon. The enhancement will be set for unlimited uses (1/1), with a 60 second duration and 10 minute reuse time.


I'll finish up here with a couple other adjustments.

  • Expansion of the scope of "/yell"
    Mocchi previously posted regarding the scope of the /yell function. As discussed by Fujito, we will hold off on increasing the scope to include Chocobo Circuit until other functions have been implemented for that area.

    Current Areas: Port Jeuno, Lower Jeuno, Upper Jeuno, Ru'Lude Gardens
    After Adjustment: Eastern Adoulin, Western Adoulin, Aht Urhgan Whitegate, Port Jeuno, Lower Jeuno, Upper Jeuno, Ru'Lude Gardens

  • Changing Mog Tablet Rewards
    Mocchi also previously made a post about this. The Talaria and Nomad Moogle Statue will remain as potential item rewards, but we are replacing the other items. Since these are just intended as a fun bonus, we'll leave it to you to discover what was added.

  • Auto-translate
    Without removing some less commonly used words and phrases, we cannot add additional phrases related to "Seekers of Adoulin." We will consider this, and plan to make replacements of some of the words in the auto-translate dictionary.


As mentioned in the intro, in addition to the above, of course, plenty of content will be added from Seekers of Adoulin. I'll work hard to put a post together for you about this next week.

I'll also work to follow-up on other work that we've been discussing, and I will post again as soon as new information is available. Thanks for your time!

Translated by: Slycer
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-03-15 12:42:09  
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 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-03-15 12:42:16  
The enemy ratio adjustment actually kinda has me concerned. First things that are coming to my mind are things like buffed up Cerb Seether doing like 800 damage with sulfurous breath, or Enraged Hydra doing 1500+ damage with Trembling. Now it's going to be even higher.

Going to be pretty hard to be taking advantage of the raised 1Her ratio when those are the jobs wearing light armor and we're being told fulltiming berserk is a really stupid idea.
 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-03-15 12:47:19  
Anyone for 100 coins of ruin?

Wish they never changed BR though, rest of it has been made easy enough already.

edit: by which I mean they have made the other three zones drop rates better 1 bad zone was hardly the end of the world imo. Not that the event is easier at 99 thats damn obvious.
 Ragnarok.Zohnax
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By Ragnarok.Zohnax 2013-03-15 12:47:32  
Can't wait to punch some stuff on MNK after this update. >_>
 Carbuncle.Xenhas
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By Carbuncle.Xenhas 2013-03-15 12:49:10  
Fulltime hybrid sets with berserk up!


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By Enuyasha 2013-03-15 12:59:34  
PALADIN SHALL RISE AGAIN I TELL YOU!

No more worrying about hitting the enmity cap and being frustrated when you and the reso spamming WAR have the same enmity<3
 Siren.Thoraeon
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-03-15 12:59:52  
Oh boy, now it will take 30 secs to hit cap instead of 10.

And it looks like I can toss Twilight Scythe. :/
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 Siren.Thoraeon
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-03-15 13:02:33  
Oh, and did I read proccing in Legion? Didn't SE said that they would stop doing that?
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-03-15 13:03:30  
Yeah I was pretty shocked at Legion staggers.
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-03-15 13:06:45  
Sylph.Krsone said: »
Anyone for 100 coins of ruin?

Wish they never changed BR though, rest of it has been made easy enough already.

BR is easy yeah but it can take a whole year for this Zebra NM to pop off Rampart, that's why they're making this adjustment I think.
 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2013-03-15 13:07:39  
Quote:
Salvage
The drop rate of level 35 items has been reviewed, and in Bhaflau Remnants, level 35 items will be adjusted to drop from additional monsters which appear within the area.

/cries happy tears uncontrollably.
is the suffering soon to be over?
Been trying for months to get some Hikazu Sune-Ate and Macha's Cuffs ; ;
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 Ragnarok.Zohnax
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By Ragnarok.Zohnax 2013-03-15 13:10:44  
Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Quote:
Salvage
The drop rate of level 35 items has been reviewed, and in Bhaflau Remnants, level 35 items will be adjusted to drop from additional monsters which appear within the area.

/cries happy tears uncontrollably.
is the suffering soon to be over?
Been trying for months to get some Hikazu Sune-Ate and Macha's Cuffs ; ;
Just imagine, it used to take longer. But it didn't even then for me, lolz.
 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2013-03-15 13:11:03  
Sylph.Krsone said: »
Anyone for 100 coins of ruin?

Wish they never changed BR though, rest of it has been made easy enough already.
Theres nothing hard about BR except trying to stay awake while standing in 1 spot killing trashmobs that get barfed out of a rampart for 20 minutes with no NMs showing up.
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 Leviathan.Matteh
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By Leviathan.Matteh 2013-03-15 13:11:49  
I'm not sure what to make of this but my idea would be raise "tank" jobs cap, keep everyone else the same as always and give +enmity gear more value like a +5 would make it so you don't lose provoke enmity gain in 30 secs, at least not all of it. Make it where that +5 from the gear on provoke use allows you to keep that 5 from it till death or till its beaten out of you.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-03-15 13:13:12  
Im hoping the Legion weakness is more like making the mobs weaker to one type of damage over another, instead of looking for a WS or Magic to proc it
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 Quetzalcoatl.Scwall
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By Quetzalcoatl.Scwall 2013-03-15 13:13:59  
Nerfs Twilight Scythe but not Mura, to be expected.
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 Siren.Thoraeon
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-03-15 13:17:32  
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Im hoping the Legion weakness is more like making the mobs weaker to one type of damage over another, instead of looking for a WS or Magic to proc it
Targeting weakness is the term they have always used for proccing.
 Ragnarok.Taereon
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By Ragnarok.Taereon 2013-03-15 13:17:36  
That Twilight Scythe adjustment is the pits.
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By Quiznor 2013-03-15 13:17:44  
Ragnarok.Zohnax said: »
Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Quote:
Salvage
The drop rate of level 35 items has been reviewed, and in Bhaflau Remnants, level 35 items will be adjusted to drop from additional monsters which appear within the area.

/cries happy tears uncontrollably.
is the suffering soon to be over?
Been trying for months to get some Hikazu Sune-Ate and Macha's Cuffs ; ;
Just imagine, it used to take longer. But it didn't even then for me, lolz.

I remember this! lolz were had when we got pops :D
 Bahamut.Catlord
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By Bahamut.Catlord 2013-03-15 13:24:25  
Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Oh, and did I read proccing in Legion? Didn't SE said that they would stop doing that?

That's not how I read it. I read it more as the same thing they said in the paragraph above it. Bottom paragraph of the NNI fixes. Making stuff take more damage from things they're weak to. Apparently mobs in legion are weak to nothing so they needed some shizzle.
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By Drjones 2013-03-15 13:26:01  
Anyone have TL;DR version of the enmity stuff that's being planned?
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