NNI - How My Group Wins On Odin

I don't get it, this is 2013, and ppl still underestimate the importance of haste when everyone and their mothers tell you haste haste haste.

I guess that's why in most PUG delve plasm farm party I've joined BRD often sing acc song over march.....


According to spreadsheet:

DRK/SAM, RCB, DC nightmare mob with 10% def down,copy and paste most of the TP/reso set posted on DRK forum.

No haste, no COR roll, no BRD songs, DPS: 320.963

Add haste DPS: 435.277

Add haste and march x2, but no COR roll DPS: 695.511

No haste, only COR roll, DPS: 373.106

Add haste+COR roll, but no BRD songs: 503.788

A DRK with haste spell+COR roll can do 503 DPS. Same DRK with haste spell and BRD song can do 695 DPS.

192 DPS difference per DRK, when you have 4x DRK the difference is 192x4=768.

768 that's even higher DPS gap than a fully hasted DRK, and you think a COR can do 768 DPS without double march when fully hasted DRK can only do 695?

No, even a perfectly geared COR can't out DD a fully hasted DRK without march.

And you're certainly not going to make your COR/WHM staying at rune 90% of time doing more dmg than a fully hasted DRK.

So why are you telling everyone "we hardly ever cast haste, and haste/march isn't important because we're always running around! We can win even without haste!"

And no, regain may give you a few free WSs, but it won't out perform the benefit of a BRD.

You do a lot of running around, you also do a lot of fighting. Every engage when you lose DPS due to lack of haste, you lose a few sec, and when you add them up, it's a lot of time.

If you're going to leave someone at rune anyways, it's much better to be a job that can actually increase your killing speed more.

And getting lucky number or having buff last longer won't make up for it. Remember, you can also get unlucky number or avg number.

And sure, you can win without haste, just like it's possible to win with 4. But you're just making your life unnecessary harder(and waste more time) without haste. You may as well just go in with 4, or use any setup and still gonna win anyways.

It's your business that you found COR worked and you got clear, but stop spreading wrong information that haste isn't important and skip-able. There are still other ppl that would prefer a more efficient run with higher win rate, and your wrong information isn't helping anyone.

Haste is the most important stat to increase. but when it comes to waiting 20 seconds at every new floor for bard to cast haste is not viable to this event. that is 1 minute every 3 floors if sitting around. Bards do great things for all jobs. the argument is not about what a bard can do. Im sure everyone knows what they are capable of... the questions is if you can not find a bard to go. then can a cor replace it. and the answer is YES of course it can. It is not about what job is better. Your tangent has completely deterred where this post was initially about. So you are the one not helping anyone here.

BRD songs take just as long as Embrava did, which isn't that long considering you can start running before the second song finishes and still get its effects...

if your brd is attentive, you have:
1 min in(f1): N/T, 6.5 seconds used(13 with daur)
7 min in: recast march x2, 11 sec used with maxed FC
(if daur) 8 min in: recast march x2(min first since shorter due to daur, if using daur), 11 sec used with maxed fc

~12 min in(first port after n/t up): N/T, 6.5 seconds used(13 with daur)
~18 min in: recast march x2, 11 sec used with maxed FC
(if daur) ~19 min in: recast march x2(min first since shorter due to daur, if using daur), 11 sec used with maxed fc

~22 min in: SV N/T, 6.5 seconds used(13 with daur)

i'm seeing a total of about 40 seconds for a 2 song brd(83 seconds for 4song) to keep songs up whole run if they actually bother with fast cast(you can use /rdm to gimp that too, if you don't have the gil for nice gear)

don't forget about half that buff time is also going to coincide with sch buffs

That's why bard should use the Harp, you get massive aoe range for your marches. With the current gear you can cast songs super quick and be done with before even cor finishes.

I'm not saying you must go in with perfect setup, I'm specifically replying his statement "Haste isn't important", which I disagree even in NNI, an event with lots of downtime.

You don't need to wait for 20 sec every floor to reapply songs, songs last longer than every floor and you're just exaggerating. The benefit of march x2 still brings more value than any other job.

If you're going to argue that "I can't find a good BRD, I'm just gonna get a COR or any job to replace it because I don't care about which job is better", you may as well sell 6th spot and make gil.

If it takes your brd 20 seconds to cast 2 songs there's an issue You can do it faster than that with 0% fastcast. Brds should have a decent to good fastcast set.

Next, duration gear and N/T. Standard duration of songs is 2 minutes but let's hope your brd has some gear...
+3 march instrument adds 36 seconds.
The Aoidos' manchettes +2 adds 12 seconds
The Aoidos' hongreline +2 adds 12 more seconds
The Aoidos' Matinee adds 12

None of this gear is hard to get and all brds should have it, especially if you're letting them in to your nyzul group. While there is more duration gear available, it's significantly harder to get and most brds don't have it so I won't include it.

That's 192 seconds or 3.2 mins. Every 10 minutes you can get a nice duration and fc as well as potency from Marcato. The boosted songs will last double duration at 384 secs or 6.4 mins. Obviously there will be some overlap in songs since you never want them going down. But I don't see you waiting on the brd much honestly. You can cast one song every floor and no one will need to wait any more than needing to wait for the sch to regen. If you have an extended floor and they both wore then you can wait a few seconds and get the second song too.

No. You don't cast in harp, that reduces the haste value and unless you have a 99 it actually reduces the duration by 5% from a +3 instrument. The time you gain by being able to cover 10' more isn't worth the loss. If you have the harp, you should be putting up 3 or 4 songs and I'd hope you'd have capped fc if you have it.

you do more running around with tactician's up is what im trying to say

March x2 does nothing while you are looking for objectives

With march you still have ot melee

i like just getting to a mob and popping off a WS thats why think COR helps my group more

Sure a BRD's Buffs are better for constant fighting ....but not for running to the next mob to engage

And we can do this with a naked COR and get the same regain

Did some NNI the other night for my mule. Went SAM DRK BLU BRD WHM(mule) WHM(mule). It was a joke. Bring both COR and BRD if you want. Problem fixed.

this isn't about wether or not haste is important.... of Course haste is the strongest modifier

we use it for everything in this game that is single target fights
ADL VW Legion Naakual its all great but there is no running from target to target

And you have to be engaged for it to be doing something

As for a buff that works while running and last longer

COR's tacticians works while looking for objectives and with JA's like Sekkanoki you can sometimes dumb alot of WS's off AS SOOON AS U REACH A TARGET ....

Double attack helps alot too for SAM specially with a Quality 5 hit build your only seconds from a WS no matter what

As a Sam myself, Haste is still too superior to turn down. Hasso is just too good with March/Haste, plus the Zanshin kicking in. Zanshin gives like double the amount of a double attack melee. What's the point... Zanshin clearly wins with Hasso and haste boost.

Regain for running around doesn't out weight march x2 in NNI IMO. If you get lamp floor or 1 mob, you get 1 free WS. If you get kill all(you won't be able to regain to full on a kill all floor for most of your engage) or NM floor, your killing speed drops a lot.

You may not regain to full if you flee very often, which you should anyways.



No, naked COR gets regain -1.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nvrch._Frac_%2B2

Said this already about regain, but I'll repeat myself since you kind of ignored it. Let's assume you just want 100 TP instead of 300.

a tick happens every 3 seconds (let's ignore meditate since you'd have it with or without bard/cor):
Naked -> normal roll = 1TP/tick ---> 100TP = 300seconds (5minutes)
With AF3 -> normal roll = 2TP/tick ---> 100TP = 150seconds (2.5minutes)

To gain the benefit you stated, you're telling me you spent 5mins running around before you engage. let's assume you're not stupid enough to bring a naked Cor, you still spent 2.5mins running around before you engage. That can only happen after a fairly long lamp floor.

Bard have mazurka(can be casted while people pop powders and oils), unless your group pop powder boots (or have some sort of other methods or "methods" to speed up). So you won't get regain, but you get to find the lamps faster with a bard. Yes COR gets Bolter's Roll, but you get as low as 2% unless you hit lucky (12%) or 11(25%). And you wouldn't do that since you want regain and you don't want to stay on the pole for too long.


I don't know about your group, but haste is pretty important for mine. what made my group from averaging around 70-80 floors to 90-100 floors was getting the brd to /smn to ensure that double march and haste is on everyone, all the time. I've seen a couple of other posters saying the same.


Another problem with COR is buffs can only be applied when it wears (or you fold). So you can't reapply buffs when it's about to wear off, like bard can. On situations where you have 10-30s before your roll wears, you have to suck it up and do the floor with pretty much without that buff. With bard you'll never have that problem.

So far I'm more curious as to whether your group will get a higher success rate if you ditch the COR and just bring in another DD. lol

COR just needs to use another roll after he buffs party so that he can re-apply first party buff when it's time-convenient, not when it wears off. Not saying that COR is as good as BRD in NNI, just claryfing this one point.

Ah, makes sense :)

But that also means extra delay at pole than anticipated, which is what Kingdinguhling keeps pointing out to be the benefit of COR~

I personally got 3 pieces of gear last night 3 runs

2 floor 80s and 2 100s out of 3 runs

one member got 4 pieces I think.....won lot

I think a few others got 3 also

so all in all a great night with our
85 Masamunes and our COR for the win.... :P

HATERS LOL

2 100s out of 3 runs? That's not a lot if you're talking about 3-4 invades a day and count them as a run. So basically... and? That doesn't really mean Corsair beats Bard or even compares.

Holy sh!t.....

2013 and people still don't understand Haste > all in FFXI. The better your melee's are the more valuable it becomes.

The minimums
25% Gear
10~25% JA
15% Haste spell

~50% for most 2H, 65% for DRK (they can tweak their gear a bit during LR) and 40% for 1H/H2H jobs.

Double March's is 24.9% haste with a +3 instrument (technically something like 24.99). Can go a bit higher if your BRD is a career BRD and has 99 G.Horn.

The DPS difference from 50% to 74.9% is +99.2%

100/50 = 2.0
100/25.1 = 3.984
3.984/2.0 = 1.992, or 99.2% increase.

That's f*cking huge and easily trumps anything and everything a COR could possible provide.

The difference only gets bigger until the DD's have 55% total haste prior to songs which only DRK's can get, SAM's get close through.

><

OH IM SORRY I WON WITHOUT BRD




----- THANK YOU

HATERS




PS... LOL

NUMBERS ALL DAY BUT CANT ACCOUNT FOR TIME RUNNING AROUND

HAVE ANY OF YOU EVEN TRIED COR????

lol

Show me numbers in a NNI run with BRD Vs with COR see how huge the gap is I bet its not so staggering...

I'll just check back on this thread next week

Or you can get banned from topic. You making yourself look like an idiot and fail trolling.

I think the important takeaway is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it understand that HASTE > ALL.

BRO, DO YOU EVEN LIFT!?

What is a man? A miserable pile of secrets!

But enough talk. HASTE at you!

We was able to straight out easy 100 win. 2nd was lots of 2-4x jumps and 3rd reaching 99 from a 95. (Yeaah... We got the PDT Custard) Could have won twice. We also killed the 80 boss for our 100 win with some bad jumps. We done this with no flee at all but 3 of us had fillmode. One without Windower and 2 on Xbox. We let our Bard take all the adds off us to prevent getting killed by overrun. You don't really need a smn sub for bard, you can do this without Haste. The Sch will haste us if we're or one of us is local to him at the Rune.

Sam/War-Masa
Sam/War-Delve
Sam/War-Delve
Drk/Sam
Brd/Whm
Sch/Rdm

Could of easily done with a Mnk in placement with the relic. We always split up and Bard kept trying to march us every time we fight or when Sch buffs us. Kept us off paralyze from the Soul/Chariot Leaders, plus dispelled all the Ice Spikes. As long you got good team work and cooperation with the lamps it shouldn't take long. We always split up on All mobs and control rooms to find more. Sams solo the familys if it's a low floor and KO them with a Skillchain.

We use the Body Boost/Dusty Wing at the start and grab another. Keep a Fool/Fana/Monarch/Dusty Wing/Clerics/Vicars/Potion/Elixir/Spys Drink. Use Vicars if Brd is not local and use clerics if too many status but take turns using it. The rest is save for bosses. Use the Fanatics for Vampyr and use Fools for the Dvegr. Delve Weapons make NNI so ridiculously easy. Make sure you use Red Curry Buns with a Sanction food duration! Good luck assaulting people!