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Why won't you main WHM
By Godfry 2023-11-28 07:27:50
the BLU spams TP denial and other awesome BLU spells Tank (PLR or RUN)
WAR
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM
I don't see BLU
With WAR tanking adds and no BLU for TP reset, then you can't really exclude random things happening, because if add will hit you with Debilitating Spout, you are kinda fu***.
That being said I don't see a reason for GEO in that party (especially that Saevel is saying it's not a race, so while BRD+COR+GEO?), when it could be BLU. Not only that would allow for TP reset, but also would help distribute damage done to Kalunga on more people, helping drastically with WAR not pulling hate close to the end.
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you
What? Subtle blow lowering TP gain for monster that hits you? That would be the first time I hear this and I call that bs :) because then player hitting MNK mobs would also get less TP, which isn't true.
position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
Again bs. Monster doing AoE auto-attacks only gets TP from hitting main target. Doesn't matter how many people are in range. They will even get 0TP if hitting PLD for 0 as main target and hitting whole other party for more than 0.
Yeah, without blu we had to pray the adds didn't do full dispel on the dds. I've done it with blu, in a pug group, and the fight was pretty stable.
 Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2023-11-28 08:13:34
the BLU spams TP denial and other awesome BLU spells Tank (PLR or RUN)
WAR
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM
I don't see BLU
With WAR tanking adds and no BLU for TP reset, then you can't really exclude random things happening, because if add will hit you with Debilitating Spout, you are kinda fu***.
That being said I don't see a reason for GEO in that party (especially that Saevel is saying it's not a race, so while BRD+COR+GEO?), when it could be BLU. Not only that would allow for TP reset, but also would help distribute damage done to Kalunga on more people, helping drastically with WAR not pulling hate close to the end.
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you
What? Subtle blow lowering TP gain for monster that hits you? That would be the first time I hear this and I call that bs :) because then player hitting MNK mobs would also get less TP, which isn't true.
position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
Again bs. Monster doing AoE auto-attacks only gets TP from hitting main target. Doesn't matter how many people are in range. They will even get 0TP if hitting PLD for 0 as main target and hitting whole other party for more than 0.
Yeah, without blu we had to pray the adds didn't do full dispel on the dds. I've done it with blu, in a pug group, and the fight was pretty stable.
Just ensure the WAR has those items + auspice and that the add isn't hitting multiple people, it won't have TP. SB also works on TP gained from monsters hitting you.
[+]
By Godfry 2023-11-28 10:10:07
the BLU spams TP denial and other awesome BLU spells Tank (PLR or RUN)
WAR
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM
I don't see BLU
With WAR tanking adds and no BLU for TP reset, then you can't really exclude random things happening, because if add will hit you with Debilitating Spout, you are kinda fu***.
That being said I don't see a reason for GEO in that party (especially that Saevel is saying it's not a race, so while BRD+COR+GEO?), when it could be BLU. Not only that would allow for TP reset, but also would help distribute damage done to Kalunga on more people, helping drastically with WAR not pulling hate close to the end.
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you
What? Subtle blow lowering TP gain for monster that hits you? That would be the first time I hear this and I call that bs :) because then player hitting MNK mobs would also get less TP, which isn't true.
position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
Again bs. Monster doing AoE auto-attacks only gets TP from hitting main target. Doesn't matter how many people are in range. They will even get 0TP if hitting PLD for 0 as main target and hitting whole other party for more than 0.
Yeah, without blu we had to pray the adds didn't do full dispel on the dds. I've done it with blu, in a pug group, and the fight was pretty stable.
Just ensure the WAR has those items + auspice and that the add isn't hitting multiple people, it won't have TP. SB also works on TP gained from monsters hitting you.
I see. Nice! We never fiddled with positioning the adds actually. Those dudes would spin and hit people afking in Rabao... So you probably stood in one leg and the other dds on the other?
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2023-11-28 10:20:34
I see. Nice! We never fiddled with positioning the adds actually. Those dudes would spin and hit people afking in Rabao... So you probably stood in one leg and the other dds on the other?
Yes the COR and BRD were on the back left leg, I was on the back right, the add would be on me and I would position it so that it was off to the side and not facing the other two (just in case). As long as it only hit me and I had auspice, it wouldn't get much TP. The second add at 40% never gets to 3K TP.
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By SimonSes 2023-11-28 10:58:08
You might be right about Matamata getting TP from AoE attacks, but Subtle Blow for sure doesn't work on reducing enemy TP when it hits you.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1705
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-28 14:44:29
Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
By Godfry 2023-11-28 16:00:31
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
wutttt?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1705
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-28 16:26:12
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
wutttt?
Our strategy, which I think is the one most people are employing, for HM Aminon involves stacking up the entire party behind the boss while the PLD tanks it (taking 0 damage) and then absorbing his TP.
When the PLD doesn't have Stoneskin up, his TP skyrockets. When he does have Stoneskin up, Aminon's TP is very manageable.
The entire fight, all 5 of the non-PLD members are being hit by his AOE auto-attack every time he chooses it, and it has absolutely 0 effect on his TP gain. He is DEFINITELY not getting 5x as much TP and I'm very confident in saying he gets 0 TP from anyone other than the primary target with this auto.
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By SimonSes 2023-11-28 17:02:24
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
wutttt?
Our strategy, which I think is the one most people are employing, for HM Aminon involves stacking up the entire party behind the boss while the PLD tanks it (taking 0 damage) and then absorbing his TP.
When the PLD doesn't have Stoneskin up, his TP skyrockets. When he does have Stoneskin up, Aminon's TP is very manageable.
The entire fight, all 5 of the non-PLD members are being hit by his AOE auto-attack every time he chooses it, and it has absolutely 0 effect on his TP gain. He is DEFINITELY not getting 5x as much TP and I'm very confident in saying he gets 0 TP from anyone other than the primary target with this auto.
I tried matamata with tank taking 0 damage at it was getting tp but slowly. Maybe it gets normal tp of AoE hits anyone, but number of targets being hit doesn't matter, then maybe it gets additional TP for hitting main target too. I will need to test this one day.
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By Godfry 2023-11-28 17:04:12
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
wutttt?
Our strategy, which I think is the one most people are employing, for HM Aminon involves stacking up the entire party behind the boss while the PLD tanks it (taking 0 damage) and then absorbing his TP.
When the PLD doesn't have Stoneskin up, his TP skyrockets. When he does have Stoneskin up, Aminon's TP is very manageable.
The entire fight, all 5 of the non-PLD members are being hit by his AOE auto-attack every time he chooses it, and it has absolutely 0 effect on his TP gain. He is DEFINITELY not getting 5x as much TP and I'm very confident in saying he gets 0 TP from anyone other than the primary target with this auto.
I said "wuttt" mostly out of curiosity. I usually play like you described above.. I try to have a feel for what's going on enough to be able to beat the fight. I didn't think he got 5x more TP, but at least some in case he hit other people.
Lately, on RUN, I have actually been hitting him to get TP faster, lol.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2023-11-28 17:11:09
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Maybe each mob works differently, though I doubt it, but Aminon 100% does not get TP from his aoe auto-attacks. He regularly hits 5 of us and never gets TP.
wutttt?
Our strategy, which I think is the one most people are employing, for HM Aminon involves stacking up the entire party behind the boss while the PLD tanks it (taking 0 damage) and then absorbing his TP.
When the PLD doesn't have Stoneskin up, his TP skyrockets. When he does have Stoneskin up, Aminon's TP is very manageable.
The entire fight, all 5 of the non-PLD members are being hit by his AOE auto-attack every time he chooses it, and it has absolutely 0 effect on his TP gain. He is DEFINITELY not getting 5x as much TP and I'm very confident in saying he gets 0 TP from anyone other than the primary target with this auto.
I said "wuttt" mostly out of curiosity. I usually play like you described above.. I try to have a feel for what's going on enough to be able to beat the fight. I didn't think he got 5x more TP, but at least some in case he hit other people.
Lately, on RUN, I have actually been hitting him to get TP faster, lol.
Every boss so far in the game (that I know of) gets TP from auto-attacks. That being said, the AoE auto-attacks could be different on different bosses, we've definitely noticed Mboze getting TP when he hits multiple people. Positioning him so that he is only hitting me made a big difference. Having said, that I don't think they get number of people x hit amounts, it may act like multi-hit WS's where each additional person hit only produces a small amount.
 Valefor.Aspens
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 36
By Valefor.Aspens 2023-11-28 17:11:45
Quote: Aspens Reaving Wind {2}: Kalunga and Kalunga's Matamata (No effect)
Aspens Reaving Wind {3}: Kalunga, Kalunga's Matamata, and Kalunga's Matamata (No effect)
Has anyone successfully landed a tp denial blu spell on these guys cause my reaving wind doesn't do anything
Bismarck.Demetor
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 29
By Bismarck.Demetor 2023-11-28 17:15:45
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you, position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
This isn't how it behaves on players so I doubt it does for monsters.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2023-11-28 17:36:12
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you, position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
This isn't how it behaves on players so I doubt it does for monsters.
It absolutely works that way on monsters and is incredibly noticeable. Remember monsters have vastly different TP mechanics then players do. There was a time when we had the same, and we used to cheese monsters with /NIN and deny them almost all TP. Then SE changed the entire system, resulting in us giving them way more TP and us getting far less from multi-hit WS's.
By SimonSes 2023-11-29 02:22:13
Oh and lets not sleep on the power of Subtle Blow with those adds. It's applied even with the add hits you, position yourself so it's just hitting you and not the others and you can drastically reduce it's TP gain.
This isn't how it behaves on players so I doubt it does for monsters.
It absolutely works that way on monsters and is incredibly noticeable. Remember monsters have vastly different TP mechanics then players do. There was a time when we had the same, and we used to cheese monsters with /NIN and deny them almost all TP. Then SE changed the entire system, resulting in us giving them way more TP and us getting far less from multi-hit WS's.
Saevel blocked me a while ago for pointing bs like this. His ego can't handle it.
Once again I went and tested this with BST charming pet after it hit me with 0%SB and 50%SB (CC 11 +8 Monk's roll) and there was no difference at all. Both times Clipper(crab) got 64TP.
 Asura.Xysto
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9
By Asura.Xysto 2023-11-29 16:18:55
Noup, it's a bot job
By Hopalong 2023-11-29 20:57:30
This is what the wiki says:
Subtle Blow's effect on TP gain by the enemy is calculated as such, rounded down:
For physical damage: (Base TP + 20) × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
For magical damage: 100 × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
But it seems we are saying subtle blow has no effect on enemy tp gain. This has some sense because it either assumes SE never puts SB on enemies since we get constant tp gain expectations across all mobs or there's no change calculation. But then, whats up with the wiki and prior understanding of how subtle blow works. What exactly are you guys debating...
Or are we just talking about bst pets?
I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that aoe gets more tp from attacks additively or multiplied because it doesnt work that way for players right. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it feels like its coming out of left field.
By Dodik 2023-11-29 21:35:03
The wiki is referring to enemy TP gain by actions from you to the enemy, not vice versa.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1705
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-29 22:10:26
I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that aoe gets more tp from attacks additively or multiplied because it doesnt work that way for players right. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it feels like its coming out of left field.
Players don't get AOE auto-attacks so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
The original question was: do mobs with AOE auto-attacks get TP for hitting more than 1 player?
Still not entirely clear on this one, but in my experience there's little/no increase in TP from having multiple people get hit by AOE autos.
The second question was: do mobs get fewer TP by hitting a player with subtle blow?
Seems through Simon's testing it's pretty clear this is 100% verified false, unless someone wants to provide some other testing in some other scenario to show otherwise.
I'm not sure how we test the AOE auto thing, unless someone wants to test using Absorb-TP, Fatso, or Mewing Lullaby against an IG or something with AOE autos and see what results you get? Can't charm any of them.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2023-11-29 23:03:49
This is what the wiki says:
Subtle Blow's effect on TP gain by the enemy is calculated as such, rounded down:
For physical damage: (Base TP + 20) × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
For magical damage: 100 × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
But it seems we are saying subtle blow has no effect on enemy tp gain. This has some sense because it either assumes SE never puts SB on enemies since we get constant tp gain expectations across all mobs or there's no change calculation. But then, whats up with the wiki and prior understanding of how subtle blow works. What exactly are you guys debating...
Or are we just talking about bst pets?
I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that aoe gets more tp from attacks additively or multiplied because it doesnt work that way for players right. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it feels like its coming out of left field.
Enemies get TP from hitting you and it's the OG formula before all SE's revisions. 240 delay seems to be the most common. The AOE auto-attacks originally were treated like weaponskills, things like Paralyze / Slow didn't have any effect on them. SE changed that awhile back and now they are just plain weird, sometimes it's just the primary target hit, other times each extra target is treated as an extra hit, no consistency.
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By SimonSes 2023-11-30 09:14:52
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I'm not sure how we test the AOE auto thing, unless someone wants to test using Absorb-TP, Fatso, or Mewing Lullaby against an IG or something with AOE autos and see what results you get? Can't charm any of them.
I did double test on Matamata and it was able to TP move after a while with just hitting targets other than main (all hits on main were 0 damage). Also I used Fatso to check how much TP it can absorb and Mata was for sure gaining TP, but slow. I guess the best test would be to drain all it's TP let him hit me once and then TP drainkiss with 3000TP to check how much it had after that swing. Maybe I will do it at some point in near future.
Also pet works weird here. Ironclad hitting pet 45 times with AoE attack targeting master got no TP at all, but it was getting tp when it started hitting other player.
[+]
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11
By Asura.Ayahuasca 2023-12-29 04:56:55
the thing which sucks about "main whm" is that you heavily rely on others to get anything done. Sure, I can heal you and carry an alliance to victory, but as WHM you don't have the freedom to go solo such content like a DD would do.
Other than that it's true, lag in Odyssey or Dynamis D is really a problem sometimes, those who never healed in there cannot know how it gets ridicolous, you try to cast a magic and then PRAY that it happens, as you don't see any cast bar or animation going on, you only see it at the very last, and still most of the time you'll get blamed even if the lag wasn't under your control.
It also doesn't help that ignorant players will often blame the healer for every mistake anyone else did.
You did run 50y away from the group and die alone?? healer's fault.
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By SimonSes 2023-12-29 06:35:42
but as WHM you don't have the freedom to go solo such content like a DD would do.
What would you solo on DD in 2023 that can't be done on WHM? You mean like solo Sortie and Shaol C and get more Galli and Segments? Because that's the only thing that comes to my mind.
By mhomho 2023-12-29 06:44:38
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I always thought the job classes you played were a reflection of you or your personality type (in depth role playing). Where I don't mind playing a healer, I refuse to play WHM. I don't mind SCH or RDM or BLU or other supportive mages. I never liked WHM or PLD for their holy motif and I often found the players that dawned those roles had a holier than thou attitude that was off putting. Being I didn't want to associate with them I didn't play those jobs and sought to complete content with alternative party compositions.
Just my two cents.
It's a really strong job and absolutely necessary at times. Not my cup of tea.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 470
By Asura.Wormfeeder 2023-12-29 10:18:20
I want my party to live is why I don't play whm.
[+]
By gavroches 2023-12-29 10:51:32
People should play WHM or any supporting jobs so they understand the game limit. Even a Quickcast has at least a 3 second lockout, so if you cast something on someone and a second person somehow lost 1/2 his HP, by the time you get it, even with a second quickcast proc, he might be dead. The easiest job I have play is DD, that’s totally mindless and a WAR take nothing to gear, 2 ambu weapons and a UNM weapon can hit 7-8M on ody-C, not even a full wardrobe of gear. Go ask a WHM veteran, 2 wardrobe, full set just for FC, it’s pretty intensive, need to monitor 5 ppl, debuff everyone, ppl move and miss -aga …. The list go on. People don’t main WHM because they weak, WHM is the endgame!!!
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By Ulgar 2023-12-29 12:45:52
Jobs are tools, not identities.
I don't main ***
I also just said tities
By drakefs 2023-12-29 13:39:27
What would you solo on DD in 2023 that can't be done on WHM?
Sure if you have been a WHM for a long time and have MAB/TP/WS sets. As a WHM you have to go out of your way to gear for soloing, while likely still being worse than about any other job that isn't really trying.
I am sure a WHM could solo a lot of content without gearing for it but there is no way that is an enjoyable experience.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2023-12-29 14:17:54
This is what the wiki says:
Subtle Blow's effect on TP gain by the enemy is calculated as such, rounded down:
For physical damage: (Base TP + 20) × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
For magical damage: 100 × (1 - [Subtle Blow %] - [Subtle Blow II %])
But it seems we are saying subtle blow has no effect on enemy tp gain. This has some sense because it either assumes SE never puts SB on enemies since we get constant tp gain expectations across all mobs or there's no change calculation. But then, whats up with the wiki and prior understanding of how subtle blow works. What exactly are you guys debating...
Or are we just talking about bst pets?
I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that aoe gets more tp from attacks additively or multiplied because it doesnt work that way for players right. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it feels like its coming out of left field. He's saying when a mob hits you, if you, the player, has any subtle blow, then it reduces the TP gain the monster gains from hitting you. Which is not true.
[+]
Simple enough. What's the primary reason you won't main WHM. Feel free to list secondary reasons also.
Is it the excessive debuffs and/or lack or desire to make a required yagrush? Would you be more inclined to play it if yagrush wasn't "required"
Is it the "now you're forever whm" mentality? Would you be more inclined to play it if you weren't whm4lyfe
Is it because you can't just mash savage blade? Can you not be bothered to pay that much attention
Is it because there is too much pressure on the healer? The party lives or dies solely in your hands.
Is healing just fucking boring? Not necessarily "boring" but uninteresting.
Would you be more inclined to play it if there were bonuses from content? Double bayld, double drops, double gil, double exmplar, something
Let everyone know exactly why you use a 2box bot and won't actually play it so we can stop talking about it.
MOST games do not have dedicated healers. Some games have no healer at all. Every character can heal anyone else. And/or use items.
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