PLD Idle Body Piece.

Actually shield rates provide a base to the dmg reduction which is increase by defense. The lower the shield rating the less base dmg it blocks but increase block rate.

If only block rate was affected by size ***everyone would be using size 1 always. But reading more on sipar it seems kinda lame. Like damn near 100% block rate but under 5% dmg reduction which goes against that. So does relic since it blocks at like a size 2 rate but reduces dmg more like a 4. Weird shield is weird

sipar is a special case where it only blocks a small portion of damage, unrelated to shield stats, in return for amazing proc. rate on blocks.

btw, was it ever determined whether it actually had a set block rate or if it was just possible for it to attain rates that greatly surpass the caps of other shields?

Size is the main factor in determining damage reduction. Defense is only about .5 damage reduction per defense point.

No clue most people I know just throw it away lol. I'd like to test it on rdm and skills up

danm, you could probably easily find out if you're skilling up with a low shield skill on mobs that would generally be considered 'too high'.

0.5%

Size + DEF/2

As for Sipar I dunno, i'd imagine it increases max block rate beyond cap.

The fewer number of times you get hit casting Ichi the less useful a Sipar becomes. Things like Tyger and Byakko have triple attack so getting hit that many times in between casts isn't that uncommon. On those mobs, I'd rather block twice and take half damage than block three times and get hit for full (a Sipar only blocks 2-3% of the damage). Not to mention the more damage you take the more enmity you lose.

As far as TP is concerned, full Sword merits and Fortitude Torque/Suppanomimi put my skill at 304 I believe. Add to that I idle in accuracy/haste gear (when straight tanking), and I gain TP faster than you think. Spamming Atonement, or having TP for Chivalry is far more valuable to me than swapping shields to block something I likely would have blocked anyway.

EDIT: If you actually check the Wiki page on the Sipar you'll see it doesn't block the amount of damage that you'd expect. It's a special case, just like Aegis.

Could be situational, like lowmanning or holding an HNM. You know, with not engaging it so it doesn't tp. Aside from that I'd never swap shield.

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hmm, in this...

I don't think I can find a situation where using sipar over another shield would be more beneficial, outside of skill ups. any ideas any one? =/

Exactly. In fact it was what I said in my original post of it... also note taking the chance of getting interrupt means your also still feeding the mob tp and quite possibly in the end taking just as much or more dmg. It's more of a matter where you need that consistency. Also throwing in full -dmg instead of shield skil etc would help make the dmg reduction more comparable

I can only think of a few situations where you're not engaged and also not kiting (where using Ichi would be dumb). Two of which are in Beadeaux (S), and one of which is incredibly simple to keep shadows on. Even lowmanning, if I'm not kiting I'm (99% of the time) engaged. In most situations the TP I feed the NM is inconsequential; it either has Regain or there are other DDs on it anyway. If you're going to complain about the TP I give a mob, you must never bring THFs to anything.

Well I probably wouldn't suggest swapping shield gear out, regardless of a maximum block rate increase you wouldn't be reaching it if you take +skill gear away.

that's something I hadn't thought of. it would need to be calculated to find exacts (I'm sure I could do it, but I'm kinda eating atm, lol), but there's gotta be a point to where one setup could potentially overshadow the other. personally I'm not sure if it's possible for the damage reduction sipar build to win, only because of the 50% damage reduction cap (even less likely if it's not possible for shields to surpass the cap when combined with gear).

another ninja edit: I almost forgot the fact that you'll be using some amount of damage mitigation gear in open slots in a normal shield build any way.

Example then, I held Khim with a co-tank PLD for almost 10min for people to get there. It TP'd only once during that time, and shadows did drop quite often. I have Aegis so I wouldn't think of using a Sipar, but I could see it being using there for the split seconds shadows are down.

Choosing between getting hit for 200 damage and interupted, or 196 damage and shadows casted is a no brainer. But yeah, too few to warrant the -inv space. Shits situational.

Thats what I'm thinking on. Sipar either raises your base block rate counting your shield gear, or your maximum blockrate. If it's maximum you'd still require +shield gear to hit that regular cap, if it's base rate then you'd be able to swap some stuff out for haste or -PDT. Even still though, it'd be a small %.

My entire point is that swapping shields causes you to lose TP. In 99% of all situations, swapping shields is unnecessary or a bad idea. Unnecessary when kiting, a bad idea otherwise. The hate you get from Atonement spam or the utility of Chivalry far outweigh casting Utsusemi Ichi. Shield block rate caps at 65% as I recall. That means over half the time, my shield will come through for me anyway. I like those odds better than my odds of holding hate without Atonement/MP. Or living, for that matter. Macroing in PDT- voids the use of a Sipar as well because you're swapping out your shield skill to do it.

The TP loss and the increase in damage taken are not worth it.

EDIT: Fair enough, but I would offer you an example of my own.

Solo tanking Tyger, where triple attacks are often eerily well timed with my lack of shadows, and then followed by Dreadstorm. Using a Sipar, I could probably get shadows back on (timers permitting), but if I get hit for 300 on each swing, and then it uses Dreadstorm (or any other AoE really), I just died. If any of those were crits I probably died before the TP move. I would much rather block one or two of those and be interrupted than block all three just to have shadows wiped by a TP move or be killed by a critical.

Well even if it was just raising your max it's a type one. A rdm can probably cap block rate on a normal type one shield lol.

Also wiki is flat out wrong about some of those mobs that supposedly have regain. Most likely cause they don't hold them and give them 0 tp. Maybe they have rediculously high store tp or something but yeah. And the whole idea of low manning and not feeding tp means guess what you don't have other melees on it either lol.

I pretty much only do low man. Like less than what wiki usually says is possible. I would not put a melee on alot of endgame stuff doing that. So the whole tp atonement arguement in those situations is completely invalid.

And lets say you do get hit still with that supposed 65% block rate. With the lock time from interrupt your likely looking at another 2-3 hits before you can get ichi off again even without double/triple attack. Even if you block them all and block a good 70% dmg somehow from each that is still less than just taking the first one full force.

I guarantee you that you won't hit 65% block rate on everything. Even lesser wyrms. I couldn't even see 50% as a feasible number for Tiamat. Which btw is probably a mob you won't be atonementing often.

@Dasva Well I was just suggesting it for holding it, not fulltime.

Granted I have no experience with Tiamat, but I'd wager you'd spend more time rotating between Terra's Staff (PDT set for when shadows go bye-bye) and Neptune's Staff (fire resist set) than you would a sword and shield.

EDIT: In regards to Dasva, you're probably kiting, which almost always nullifies the use of a shield anyway.

If all your dmg is nukes and sam ws maybe a SA or TA here and there you practically are just holding a mob when you are tanking while throwing up some hate stuffs

Well that depends on gear available to the player I suppose. Hrotti for fire set, etc.

I'm counting a possible 42% physical damage mitigation gear possible for pld. granted some of it is pretty outrageous gear and you wouldn't want to use a few pieces for casting, but it's there none the less. even so, using another shield for this build may potentially do more, but this would completely depend on whether or not shield blocks can surpass the damage mitigation cap.

build:
burtgang/shield/~~~/~~~
valhalla/~~~/~~~/~~~
valhalla/darksteel+1/d.ring/jelly
~~~/~~~/darksteel+1/darksteel+1

if I've missed any gear feel free to add it, this is all for fun trying to find out if there's a situation where sipar could possibly beat other shields.

Thats about all you can get. I'd add shadow mantle in there. Issue is, unless Sipar raises your minimum block rate, by not wearing any shield + you won't be taking advanatge of it. You'd just have a typical size 1 block rate.

Not meleeing does not mean kiting. *** kiting serves like 0 purpose in a fight where your not giving the mob hardly any tp and it doesn't regain unless it cast alot or you can actuallly outrun it. In fact it greatly lowers how much hate you can generate and well makes things awkward for your spike dmging players.

It is a niche situation but it is one that I am primarily in. I rarely have the support to keep on curing tanks that keep taking dmg from a mob keeps tping. And there are plenty of mobs that really won't let you kite. Or not effectively

Could use Askar Gambieras in place of Darksteel Leggings +1. It's almost the same, except Askar is 4 DEF higher, and may or may not be easier to get.

EDIT: So you'd have me stand there and eat swings from Jailer of Fortitude (just as an example) when I could easily outrun it and never worry about shadows in the first place? I fail to see how running around casting Flash generates any less enmity than standing still and casting Flash.

Anything that doesn't move faster than the player is far better kited than standing there doing nothing.

Heh, I can't think of anything I kite nowawdays.

bah, I forgot about sipar info. more info is needed about sipar's traits (in particular conditions of proc. rate) for any argument for it to be valid. if it's an unconditional 90% rate, it has the potential to possibly block more damage in such a build. but, if it still relies on shield skill to determine a base rate and then adds a bonus, it most likely won't.


edit: yeah, I forgot askar, lol, but they'll preform exactly the same. such small amounts of def only help by close to a ten-thousandth of a percent.

If it didn't rely on shield skill, it would situational beat Aegis.

I'm trying to buy one now... but the people currently killing it actually have someone that wants it lol.
Not sure I'd go that far. Aegis combine block rate and dmg reduction might still win on average from getting interupted vs not and taking full dmg. Unless you can garunteedly take the 1-2 hits you'd take for using ichi but couldn't take the hits from getting interupted.

lol, maybe he's reading this thread too