Attention All Gungnir Owners And Non-Gungnir Owners

It's a reasonable suggestion to the constrictions you've placed. If someone had no time to play, it's reasonable to assume it's because one has work/school/whatever to attend to. Gil is cheaper now than it's ever been.

LOL

It sounds an awful lot like people are seeking "balance"


HAHAHAHAHHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Be careful what you wish for.....

For those who didn't go read Ophannus's suggestions, he brings up two main points:

1) Gungnir's shock spikes aftermath is pointless in the current state of the game.

2) The defense down effect from Gungnir is poop because Angon is more powerful and the effects cannot both be active on a single mob at the same time.

In my opinion, attempting to have the game's designers go back and alter the properties of old weapons in light of how the game has developed over the years almost completely defeats the point of having different weapons and categories of end-game weapons in the first place. Just because solo-play is essentially non-existent now does not mean SE should go back and adjust older weapons that were designed for an age when solo-play was something that was actually admired, and exclusive to the handful of jobs that were capable of it. To be honest, making such changes would almost completely defeat the point of coming out with the new lines of end-game weapons (mythics/empyreans) that currently exist.

The game evolves, and in order to continue to be successful it is the player's obligation to adapt to those changes (for the most part). This means you make whichever weapon(s) currently best suit(s) your given desires -- not make requests for old weapons to be changed to cater to your desires (whether you are already in possession of said weapon or not).

Here is a quote from Ophannus's post on the official forums:
"There is nothing special about Gungnir except for the fact that it's the highest base damage polearm and has +40 accuracy, which every other 2handed relic have."

It has the highest base damage and the incredibly powerful accuracy boost that accompanies all 2-handed relics. That is exactly what is special about the relic polearm, and perhaps given future alterations to the game, having those properties may make it more "useful" in the future. (depending upon how you define useful). If you are defining useful as "being top tier end-game DD", then I think you should be focusing your efforts on a different weapon, as opposed to making changes to an old relic.

As I said above though, I think the real point here is that it is your job to adapt to what the game offers in terms of weapon choices, not the dev's job to change the weapons they make to cater to what you'd like to be able to do with them.

Says the man who just finished his Ryu :P

PP;lz are stil ldisuciggin this? im mad drunk still just g0t back from my 21st bday lol but anyway DRG is not a dd stop bitchinW <<_<_<_<_<_<

lmao

So let me get this straight: "Gugnir is crap, but Ragnarok is awesome because DRKs like to use Resolution (Merit WS) with their relic and DRG end up using merit WS instead of relic WS."

?

Beating a dead horse

How dare you call him a horse.

Yeah, something like that. >_>

lol way over simplified and definitely not all the details.

+40 Acc on both
Weak WS on both
Both have ODD.
Gungnir has a crap add. effect that actually harms its own merit category
Ragnarok has a 14% crit rate bonus
Polearm has Stardiver, 0.75 FTP fourfold attack that lowers crit evasion. FTP carries over to all hits.
Great Sword has Resolution, 0.71~ FTP fivefold attack. FTP carries over to all hits. Resolution is currently considered the most powerful WS in the game.
Both WS scale with STR 100%

That's the comparison.

Tik is that 14% on Rag after Scourge? Because doesn't it's AM give you more crit rate? I know reso isn't a crit WS, but for what it's worth, that's actually a useful AM. Even still the 14% native crit rate is pretty damn boss.

If you want a serious stab at the post, the claim becomes even more ridiculous.

The idea of a Aftermath being good enough to warrant the WS makes sense, but the converse is quite ridiculous to assert since the WS guarantees the aftermath (i.e. if the WS is good, you'll use the WS because of that despite the aftermath).

Of the Aftermaths,
Mercy Stroke
Scourge
Tachi: Kaiten (??)
Coronach
Catastrophe

have relevant values for DD. Of those, only four (I'll assume Kaiten for your benefit, but I doubt the aftermath is worth ***now) are worth activating and one of those comes from a subpar weapon. Meta's DT is absolutely overrated even within Hall of Mul (Hint: So overrated that Ukon and Ragnarok, a secondary weapon, are preferred).

Of the WSs,
Mercy Stroke
Knights of Round (??)
Tachi: Kaiten

are very powerful WS. Pretty much giving KOR and Kaiten though since I don't really care to compare. Merit WS and Empyreans outperform the rest and Gungnir is no different.

In terms of weapon ranking (Within a respective class of weapons), Gungnir is quite competitive. Your competition is essentially a Mythic. Why isn't that the case for RNG? Oh right, a shitty X-bow weapon. Why isn't that the case for DRK? Oh right, no such mythic exists.

In terms of raw damage, that's a fault of DRG. These references to Resolution ignore the fact that you can Resolution with *ANY* GS. Ragnarok doesn't even provide benefits specific to Resolution beyond high base damage and accuracy. In regards to Eikechi's latest commnets, AM doesn't appear post-Resolution and a 5% critical hit rate for 20s isn't even worth using.

The issue isn't Ragnarok vs Gungnir, it's DRG vs DRK. Stardiver is by no means a weak weaponskill, worse than Resolution by some degree but not horrible, and if it was attached to a weapon and job capable of supporting it properly it would be more welcome.

The only issues with Gungnir are the job it's attached to, and the fact that the DEF down is so ***in the grand scheme of things.

As an aside, the 14% crit rate is just a bonus and largely forgettable, a lot of things that are high end completely negate it with their natural crit evasion, and on those that don't you won't see a massive boost come out of it for the jobs that make the most use of Ragnarok.


@Eikechi, it isn't worth it at all to waste 100TP on Scourge's 5% crit rate for 20 seconds.


edit: guess I should have refreshed the page first

Agreed. When writing up that post, I actually noticed how little the variance between them is (The difference IS there, and it IS stark, but not as big as I thought originally). Though I do think that all the weapons with add. effect got jipped compared to Ragnarok. DRK has received a LOT of small upgrades that have culminated in it being very powerful, whereas SE has only marginally upgraded DRG by comparison, and most the time it really boils down to side-grades, or linked timers, or modifications that really don't contribute to the damage dealing phase. DRG has always been low-man on the totem pole though after the Penta nerf.

Gungir's AM is what it is - if they made it any "better" (like being able to stack AM with Angon) Drg would be the next bandwagon job.

If you like Drg enough just get one - i still love playing Pld and i dont cry over my Excals crappy regen and ask for it to be better.

That isnt Gungnirs AM its shock spikes the def down is the added effect.

arr yes that's what i ment to say Gungir's ad affect! but yes Excals ad affect can rock at times.

if you dont ask for change it will never happen . i am not a melee main but being on the back line and seeing DDs put the effort into a relic just make merit WS pewpew that much harder while almost never using the relic WS is a bit laughable . back in the 75s a relic was pretty epic and even by emp standards it still is . the arguement that the game has evolved so crying that relic you made when you were 75 is now dwarfed by another is complete none sense . ppl put alot of time and effort into that and there for should be rewarded as such . there are trials to upgrade them from 75 . if there are supposed to gimp compared to newer weapons why have a trial path . becareful about what you wish for tho , square's track record is that gimping everyone to equals , not empowering them .

This only makes your relic weapon do more damage. I don't understand the argument here. If you have a better weapon + a better weapon skill your gain over everyone else is only increasing.

Since we're in the drg section, Gungnir has been dwarfed by Ryu for 6 years. There has been time for people to adjust.

SE is about getting the monthly payment. I'm sure they'd add more incremental trials to infinitely more items if they could.

I understand people want drg to be better, but it can be with Ryu. THF is my favorite job and there is currently no option available to me to make it a viable DD even having my relic or potentially making a mythic. There is at least an avenue open to drg's.

wikis and things

I think we need to keep in mind just what dragoon is. It's hard to compare them to Warrior and Dark Knight because these two jobs have innate abilities and traits that increase their damage power. Berserk, Double Attack, Souleater, Last Resort, Warcry, En-dark etc. True you could sub war or drk to be granted some of these abilities, but I'm talking the jobs at their core.

If you took these 3 jobs and removed sub job traits and abilities its clear who would pull ahead of the others.

What Dragoon has going for it is their weapons and 2nd highest in base damage, ability damage via jumps, wyvern support, accuracy bonus traits. Most of which make their jumps more potent, a reason why mythic polearm is so amazing.

I think soul jump, spirit jump, and the new 2hr are steps in the right direction to make drg more competitive in the DD scene, but it still leaves drg more of a burst damage job than a sustained damage job.

Perhaps drg needs different ways to reset their jump timers, lower the recast, extra potency of next jump(s), more stat enhancement with wyvern out. While this would probably put a mythic drg even further ahead, it would help capitalize on Gungnir's naturally high base damage.

P.S. sorry if this lacks a clear point, have a fever and hazy mind and was just bored and wanted to add some thoughts ^^, basically better jumps ftw since that is what dragoon is all about.

They are eventually going to make the additional effect and angon stack, though it was long ago they said this. It still was stated as a fact.

I changed my mind from Ragnarok to Gungnir. Way too many Rag DRKs or WARs out and about now. You can't join an alliance w/o seeing one in it.

It's probably because they're better than Gungnir drg's. Why not just use it as an investment towards Ryu or any other respectable weapon as it seems you'd like to be a DD and you're not making Gungnir because you love drg so much?

Hmmm... I don't know about investing 450M into Ryu. Gungnir is pretty cheap to make in comparison. I have about half the currency for a Ragnarok atm. Quite frankly I like DRG better than DRK. I already have the what I -want-. (Aegis, Almace, Kannagi, Masamune, Armageddon) Gungnir would just be a toy for me really.

Thing is, you'll be able to outparse your Gungnir with a Hoarfrost Blade and then you'll have two mediocre DDs instead of one good one. You might as well save your gil and wait until you're inspired to buy a weapon that doesn't suck.