Rhongomiant Application

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Rhongomiant Application
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 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-09-22 16:42:31  
That anyone claiming Empyreans in general are bad, due to overestimates from spreadsheets, are just as inaccurate as people claiming they're good.

Because it's apparently impossible to do proper testing.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 16:43:23  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.
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By Anna Ruthven 2017-09-22 16:43:59  
Knock off the bickering and hostility. Jesus Christ how do these threads come to this?
 Carbuncle.Stiltz
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By Carbuncle.Stiltz 2017-09-22 16:45:59  
Anna Ruthven said: »
how do these threads come to this?

Post counters.
Quantity > Quality.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 16:46:33  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

I will gladly upload the spreadsheet.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 16:52:04  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

I am not going back and recreating all of it, but a few months ago I was going nuts with the spreadsheet. My notes say "Capped Haste/Att, Crooked + 5 Fighter/SAM, AM3+ starts no split" Rhon and Gungnir used 5 hit builds, while 4 hitters were used for Trish and Ryu.

Rhong: 5,966.59
Trish: 5,795.53
Gungnir: 5,217.51
Ryu: 5,088.76

I also noted if you take the COR out, the Ryu and Gungnir swap spots.

I understand it's not a bunch of screenshots, so make of that what you will.
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By Anna Ruthven 2017-09-22 16:52:29  
I'll probably catch hell for this comment but who really cares?

It's always funny when person 1 starts ***and after awhile person 2 gets annoyed and responds with the same behavior as person 1 who immediately reports person 2 for said behavior.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 16:54:03  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

I am not going back and recreating all of it, but a few months ago I was going nuts with the spreadsheet. My notes say "Capped Haste/Att, Crooked + 5 Fighter/SAM, AM3+ starts no split"

Rhong: 5,966.59
Trish: 5,795.53
Gungnir: 5,217.51
Ryu: 5,088.76

I also noted if you take the COR out, the Ryu goes up on and the Gungir drops to last.

I understand it's not a bunch of screenshots, so make of that what you will.
and that's assuming conditions that don't exist such as 100% AM3 with no maintenance required and no skillchain damage.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 16:56:25  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

Please follow the link provided:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwJO7fhLGCorT1hMXzVESXZsdkk
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2017-09-22 16:57:00  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

Please follow the link provided:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwJO7fhLGCorT1hMXzVESXZsdkk
You're going to have to open that up to public viewing.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 16:57:13  
It's a spreadhseet dude, you got to pick something. As long as the fight is under 3 minutes the 100% is good. And was there anyone who actually thought this included skillchain damage?

We use the best tools we have, as well as our experiences in game, to make the best decisions we can. I am not sure what you are going for, here.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-09-22 16:57:23  
Anna Ruthven said: »
I'll probably catch hell for this comment but who really cares?

It's always funny when person 1 starts ***and after awhile person 2 gets annoyed and responds with the same behavior as person 1 who immediately reports person 2 for said behavior.
Yes, and this is how we entertain ourselves when nothing else important is going on. Can always just get rid of those evil post of saltiness
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 16:59:43  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
It's a spreadhseet dude, you got to pick something. As long as the fight is under 3 minutes the 100% is good. And was there anyone who actually thought this included skillchain damage?

We use the best tools we have, as well as our experiences in game, to make the best decisions we can. I am not sure what you are going for, here.
the point is trish is better in almost every real scenario.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 17:01:09  
AM3 with no maintenance does exist. Start a fight with 3k stored up before hand, and finish before AM3 wears. That being said, it probably shouldn't be considered the standard DPS value. There are ways of accounting for AM3 start up or maintenance with the spreadsheet. But they're not intuitive and pretty confusing to actually use.

If we add in SC damage, it's either going to be flat out Trishula's win(solo DD self SC for sure, and good SC chance even if not) or it'll depend on the other DD's and what WS are being used.

But the spreadsheets don't have a way to handle skillchains, so we usually leave them out since they're largely accidental in zergs anyway. I would freaking love a skillchain section in the sheet though.. particularly a multi-step self SC calculator...
[+]
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 17:01:30  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

Please follow the link provided:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwJO7fhLGCorT1hMXzVESXZsdkk
Thanks, I'll look that over in a bit.

EDIT: yeah, not publicly view-able.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:03:52  
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

Please follow the link provided:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwJO7fhLGCorT1hMXzVESXZsdkk
You're going to have to open that up to public viewing.

Should be fixed now.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:05:15  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
AM3 with no maintenance does exist. Start a fight with 3k stored up before hand, and finish before AM3 wears. That being said, it probably shouldn't be considered the standard DPS value. There are ways of accounting for AM3 start up or maintenance with the spreadsheet. But they're not intuitive and pretty confusing to actually use.

If we add in SC damage, it's either going to be flat out Trishula's win(solo DD self SC for sure, and good SC chance even if not) or it'll depend on the other DD's and what WS are being used.

But the spreadsheets don't have a way to handle skillchains, so we usually leave them out since they're largely accidental in zergs anyway. I would freaking love a skillchain section in the sheet though.. particularly a multi-step self SC calculator...
that's my point, rho is overestimated if we don't consider skillchains and trish is underestimated if we do and even then it's a marginal 3% if we go by sidra's numbers. trish requires no additional factors to be good
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 17:06:24  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
It's a spreadhseet dude, you got to pick something. As long as the fight is under 3 minutes the 100% is good. And was there anyone who actually thought this included skillchain damage?

We use the best tools we have, as well as our experiences in game, to make the best decisions we can. I am not sure what you are going for, here.
the point is trish is better in almost every real scenario.

I ranked the weapons on the other page, and I ranked Trish first overall. Given all of it's various uses, including Ultimate Skillchains, and the fact you don't have to maintain AM there is tons of content where it will out produce Rhon which I think outweighs the small advantage the spreadsheet gives Rhon in max buff HELM TP burn type situations.

No need to get your panties in a bunch because one specific data set doesn't jive with your opinion. It is what it is.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:09:24  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
It's a spreadhseet dude, you got to pick something. As long as the fight is under 3 minutes the 100% is good. And was there anyone who actually thought this included skillchain damage?

We use the best tools we have, as well as our experiences in game, to make the best decisions we can. I am not sure what you are going for, here.
the point is trish is better in almost every real scenario.

I ranked the weapons on the other page, and I ranked Trish first overall. Given all of it's various uses, including Ultimate Skillchains, and the fact you don't have to maintain AM there is tons of content where it will out produce Rhon which I think outweighs the small advantage the spreadsheet gives Rhon in max buff HELM type situations.

No need to get your panties in a bunch because one specific data set doesn't jive with your opinion. It is what it is.
i don't have an issue with anything you've said, just the people that think rho is the best thing ever because they went and made one.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:09:59  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
AM3 with no maintenance does exist. Start a fight with 3k stored up before hand, and finish before AM3 wears. That being said, it probably shouldn't be considered the standard DPS value. There are ways of accounting for AM3 start up or maintenance with the spreadsheet. But they're not intuitive and pretty confusing to actually use.

If we add in SC damage, it's either going to be flat out Trishula's win(solo DD self SC for sure, and good SC chance even if not) or it'll depend on the other DD's and what WS are being used.

But the spreadsheets don't have a way to handle skillchains, so we usually leave them out since they're largely accidental in zergs anyway. I would freaking love a skillchain section in the sheet though.. particularly a multi-step self SC calculator...
that's my point, rho is overestimated if we don't consider skillchains and trish is underestimated if we do and even then it's a marginal 3% if we go by sidra's numbers. trish requires no additional factors to be good

Negative, thats not your point at all.

As I mentioned before:
" Putting Rho, and Trish to test in field and on spreadsheets, in capped situations (pDif mostly) Rho wins on both, if solo DPS fully buffed Trish wins, if Stardiver Spam in Zerg scenarios with meatheads (DDs that spam without order) it pulls ahead of Rho.
in Low buffs situation Rho leads by a lot.

For survivability purposes Rho's 50 VIT is amazing."

That totally contradicts what you're saying and surprisingly aligns with what Martel is saying.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 17:10:54  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
AM3 with no maintenance does exist. Start a fight with 3k stored up before hand, and finish before AM3 wears. That being said, it probably shouldn't be considered the standard DPS value. There are ways of accounting for AM3 start up or maintenance with the spreadsheet. But they're not intuitive and pretty confusing to actually use.

If we add in SC damage, it's either going to be flat out Trishula's win(solo DD self SC for sure, and good SC chance even if not) or it'll depend on the other DD's and what WS are being used.

But the spreadsheets don't have a way to handle skillchains, so we usually leave them out since they're largely accidental in zergs anyway. I would freaking love a skillchain section in the sheet though.. particularly a multi-step self SC calculator...
that's my point, rho is overestimated if we don't consider skillchains and trish is underestimated if we do and even then it's a marginal 3% if we go by sidra's numbers. trish requires no additional factors to be good
Well, I'm just being very literal, as always. you said the conditions didn't exist, and they do. That was all I was getting at.

By and large I agree that Trishula is the top polearm right now. And I do think that Rhongomiant is probably overestimated, but I like to work through the numbers/spreadsheet to show it before making the claim one way or the other.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:11:40  
no it doesn't and martel hasn't said anything about it.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:18:11  
Where in my post i mentioned that Rho will always come first, should i post again the same text to see that:

  • Rho wins in capped pDif.


  • Trish Wins in Solo DPS and/or SC spam with others.


  • Rho wins in low buff situations.


  • Trish wins in Stardiver Zerg spam.



Thats almost equal, which goes back to the original argument that they are really close to one another and are far superior to Relic and Mythic.

Case closed.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:19:31  
so because you said so, it makes it true, and we're all supposed to just accept that?
 Carbuncle.Stiltz
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By Carbuncle.Stiltz 2017-09-22 17:20:59  
[+]
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:22:32  
  • Spreadsheet says so.


  • In game fights showed that too.



Stop trying so hard to make it personal and be professional.
You have the spreadsheet, go play with it or make a Rho and compare it yourself.

Again, You proved nothing!