Rhongomiant Application

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Rhongomiant Application
Rhongomiant Application
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 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 17:22:33  
Disclaimer: I am a Gungnir user working on AG'ing my Rhon and really looking forward to 1500 mele non crits becoming 4500. It's gonna be fun.

But if anyone thinks, in a situation where you are the sole DD where you can skillchain, anything is going to be close to Trish - they are idiots. Ultimate Skillchains do way more damage than the closing weaponskill. That damage alone will obliterate any other differences between the weapon or builds. To top it off, that skillchain includes more Strardivers than lengthy non Trish skillchains.

Spreadhseets, in game DPS: we use those to determine what's best in non skillchain situations because the answer is blatantly obvious in situations where skillchains are in play.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:28:38  
I don't use a spreadsheet because it is incorrect, and why would I spend all that gil on a weapon that is worse in the majority of situations to "test" stuff everyone has access to?

the only thing you've proven is your lack of game knowledge.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:30:53  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
I don't use a spreadsheet because it is incorrect, and why would I spend all that gil on a weapon that is worse in the majority of situations to "test" stuff everyone has access to?

By that logic alone, you should stop debating then.

We use what we have to share information and possible scenarios for people who enjoy said jobs.

If you don't align with that, I don't see any need for you to carry on.

Just leave it and move on, let people who wasted time building it suffer the consequences of their actions because they didn't listen to someone like you who "feels" stuff!
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:32:39  
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 17:34:10  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
  • Spreadsheet says so.


  • In game fights showed that too.



Stop trying so hard to make it personal and be professional.
You have the spreadsheet, go play with it or make a Rho and compare it yourself.

Again, You proved nothing!
Haven't had time to go over the sheet fully(was lookign at it at work between stuff) so I can't comment there yet.

However. Unless you think that there is some piece of information we are missing about Rhongomiant that makes it better than simulations suggest, actually having it is not relevant to this discussion.

There are too many randomizers both in damage calculations and in the course of fights themselves for an actual fight to serve as a useful reference towards the superiority of a weapon. Especially when the differences between said weapons are smaller than the cratio randomizer.

Long story short, provided the information on the weapons stats and AM3 mechanics are correct, we don't need to actually have or use one to have an accurate idea of its effectiveness.
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 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 17:35:02  
I don't know that it is incorrect. I imagine it is pretty darn close for the specific situation you input in it.

I would day it's far more accurate to say people don't always understand what the spreadsheet tells them, or make wide-reaching macro level statements when the data displayed is as micro as it gets.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-09-22 17:35:10  
This thread is moving to fast for me. lol.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.
I'd be pretty interested in that simulation. well assuming a mathematical layman could understand how to use it.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:35:45  
Please do, you will do everyone a favor, including me. "shockingly"

Just remember your own words "too many variables" and move from there.

P.S Dont f#%$&kn assume that others don't know what pDif means when you can't even build a solid argument or claim.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:37:04  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Please do, you will do everyone a favor, including me. "shockingly"

Just remember your own words "too many variables" and move from there.

P.S Dont f#%$&kn assume that others don't know what pDif means when you can't even build a solid argument or claim.
that's the crazy thing, in a simulation, you CAN control all the variables. crazy isn't it?

and you don't.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-22 17:37:12  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.

You can run splits on the spreadhseet that combine AM uptime and downtime. That is the real reason there are 2 sides.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:38:53  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Please do, you will do everyone a favor, including me. "shockingly"

Just remember your own words "too many variables" and move from there.

P.S Dont f#%$&kn assume that others don't know what pDif means when you can't even build a solid argument or claim.
that's the crazy thing, in a simulation, you CAN control all the variables. crazy isn't it?

and you don't.

Stop being melodramatic and Prove it then.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:40:14  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.

You can run splits on the spreadhseet that combine AM uptime and downtime. That is the real reason there are 2 sides.
sure, which isn't entirely accurate since the only way I've seen it done is to base it off average hits per round and cycle time where a sim won't weapon skill until it meets the proper tp required
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-09-22 17:42:17  
I'm just amused you're assuming maintaining AM3 is a remotely difficult thing to do?

Especially for Dragoon. If you drop it? Soul Jump/Spirit Jump and you're good for another 3 minutes.

I mean, I might be wrong. But most melee strats revolve around the enemy being dead well before that mark.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:44:46  
I never said it was difficult, just that people aren't account for it.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:44:51  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
  • Spreadsheet says so.


  • In game fights showed that too.



Stop trying so hard to make it personal and be professional.
You have the spreadsheet, go play with it or make a Rho and compare it yourself.

Again, You proved nothing!
Haven't had time to go over the sheet fully(was lookign at it at work between stuff) so I can't comment there yet.

However. Unless you think that there is some piece of information we are missing about Rhongomiant that makes it better than simulations suggest, actually having it is not relevant to this discussion.

There are too many randomizers both in damage calculations and in the course of fights themselves for an actual fight to serve as a useful reference towards the superiority of a weapon. Especially when the differences between said weapons are smaller than the cratio randomizer.

Long story short, provided the information on the weapons stats and AM3 mechanics are correct, we don't need to actually have or use one to have an accurate idea of its effectiveness.

I totally agree on that part and can only provide the spreadsheet i used (which i did unlike others) and will be on the look for in game fights that share the same conditions and supply DPS reports.

Im more than sure a simulation will shed more light on why (in general) Empys rate the way they do across REMA.

And testing in game can be considered an option, despite the erratic conditions.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:46:41  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
This thread is moving to fast for me. lol.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.
I'd be pretty interested in that simulation. well assuming a mathematical layman could understand how to use it.
what do your base stats look like on drg/sam naked?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:48:41  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
too many uncontrollable variables in "in field"

Exactly! So whats you're point?

If Empy wins with too many variables "in field" (Capped pDif) and wins on Spreadsheets.. whats you're issue? be specific ...
Care to post a copy of your spreadsheet? While the changes to Empyrean AM3 did help put Rhongomiant closer to parity with other polearms, I didn't think it had pushed it ahead.

I am not going back and recreating all of it, but a few months ago I was going nuts with the spreadsheet. My notes say "Capped Haste/Att, Crooked + 5 Fighter/SAM, AM3+ starts no split"

Rhong: 5,966.59
Trish: 5,795.53
Gungnir: 5,217.51
Ryu: 5,088.76

I also noted if you take the COR out, the Ryu goes up on and the Gungir drops to last.

I understand it's not a bunch of screenshots, so make of that what you will.
and that's assuming conditions that don't exist such as 100% AM3 with no maintenance required and no skillchain damage.

You did mention that. and proven wrong again since DRG AM3 maintenance is virtually negligible.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-09-22 17:50:20  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
This thread is moving to fast for me. lol.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.
I'd be pretty interested in that simulation. well assuming a mathematical layman could understand how to use it.
what do your base stats look like on drg/sam naked?

For Hume (probably best to use Hume if just picking one race):

STR: 106
DEX: 101
VIT: 104
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:50:46  
proven in what way? because you said so? you keep saying I don't show anything, yet you haven't either except someone else's work in a spreadsheet I get the feeling you don't know how to properly use.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:56:17  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
This thread is moving to fast for me. lol.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
I can write a simulation that will more accurately model maintaining aftermath. You don't even know wtf pdif is.
I'd be pretty interested in that simulation. well assuming a mathematical layman could understand how to use it.
what do your base stats look like on drg/sam naked?

Hume DRG/SAM 2100 SU3
STR 106
DEX 101
VIT 104
AGI 99
INT 92
MND 95
CHR 102
Att 195
DEF 348
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 17:57:26  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
proven in what way? because you said so? you keep saying I don't show anything, yet you haven't either except someone else's work in a spreadsheet I get the feeling you don't know how to properly use.

What do you mean someone else's spreadsheet, lol wtf
Its my gear set and my modified spreadsheet ...
Seriously you're annoying with your assumptions that are devoid of any logic.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 17:58:23  
as in, you didn't make the sheet. it's someone else's work
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 18:00:46  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
as in, you didn't make the sheet. it's someone else's work

Who the hell cares if someone else made it.
What is your point again, you lost me.. oh wait (trying to make me incompetent again because you got nothing to prove)
Typical by now.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-09-22 18:01:34  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
as in, you didn't make the sheet. it's someone else's work
Tell me about all of those damage formula's and weapon skill modifiers you totally discovered yourself.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 18:03:54  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
as in, you didn't make the sheet. it's someone else's work

Who the hell cares if someone else made it.
What is your point again, you lost me.. oh wait (trying to make me incompetent again because you got nothing to prove)
Typical by now.
as in you don't understand what's going on in it.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 18:07:27  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
as in, you didn't make the sheet. it's someone else's work

Who the hell cares if someone else made it.
What is your point again, you lost me.. oh wait (trying to make me incompetent again because you got nothing to prove)
Typical by now.
as in you don't understand what's going on in it.

You're just being pathetic now!
Got nothing useful to add?
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-09-22 18:08:35  
I mean, it's pretty easy to check out what the behind the scenes stuff is in Braden's spreadsheet. And then cross reference it with information readily available on BGWiki.

It's almost like literally everything we know about the back end game has been a community effort since the game was released.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-22 18:10:09  
Sylph.Cherche said: »
I mean, it's pretty easy to check out what the behind the scenes stuff is in Braden's spreadsheet. And then cross reference it with information readily available on BGWiki.
you'd think so, but a lot of people misuse the spreadsheets because they don't know what the *** is going on behind the scenes.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-09-22 18:11:04  
Sylph.Cherche said: »
I mean, it's pretty easy to check out what the behind the scenes stuff is in Braden's spreadsheet. And then cross reference it with information readily available on BGWiki.

Lets wait and see his savvy comeback~ by that I mean [pathetically trying to sound smart by providing only text and no data]
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-09-22 18:19:42  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Sylph.Cherche said: »
I mean, it's pretty easy to check out what the behind the scenes stuff is in Braden's spreadsheet. And then cross reference it with information readily available on BGWiki.

Lets wait and see his savvy comeback~ by that I mean [pathetically trying to sound smart by providing only text and no data]
Eh. Austar tends to know their stuff.

But they, like Savael and others also like to make a ton of assumptions.

Like Savael and Bloodlusty dismissing Torcleaver because it had a tendency to slightly under perform compared to Resolution in a zerg. While completely ignoring it's absolutely superior skill chaining properties.

Where they then posted a zerg video of Bloods under the pretense of "skill chains don't happen" often. Said video showed back to back to back to back Light/Darkness Skillchains the entire time.

Savael, now, is a proponent of multi-step skill chains. But he was rather dismissive of them not too long ago.

EDIT: I'm not under any pretense I changed his mind, for the record.