Why Do I See So Many 5/5 Usukane SAMs?

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
言語: JP EN FR DE
日本語版のFFXIVPRO利用したい場合は、上記の"JP"を設定して、又はjp.ffxivpro.comを直接に利用してもいいです
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Why do I see so many 5/5 Usukane SAMs?
Why do I see so many 5/5 Usukane SAMs?
 Valefor.Thioo
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Thio
Posts: 55
By Valefor.Thioo 2010-05-04 23:52:43  
Ty ty~
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1419
By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-05-04 23:59:30  
Sorry I didn't math right. What I did was figure out Tomoe's weapon rank which was floor(dmg rating/9) tomoe is 86 so that came out to be weapon rank=9 just like Dasva got.

Wiki said that: "The upper cap of fSTR is ( weapon rank+8)."

So I did 9+8= 17


... I see what I did now, I mixed up dstr with fstr. Sorry for the mix up.

Tiger is correct you'd still need to include the +4str in consideration.
 Valefor.Argettio
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Argettio
Posts: 559
By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-05 03:29:29  
Um... why has no one brought up the 5hit build?

So it is all well and good arguing about Full usukane vs Ace's for birds is kind of pointless as a bit of haste, accuracy, str or attack doesn't matter when you drop a hit (or lose your true 5hit build on birds).

And if need to add rose or whatever to your mixed set then you need consider those changes (2DA is close to 1% haste)
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15041
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-05 03:34:37  
You don't need 5hit for usu, thus me not bringing it up. Body and feet, both of which are in the mix and match anyways.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1419
By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-05-05 03:35:26  
Cause both the builds I'm talking about are 5 hit polearms without having to mess with rose strap.

Ace's/Usu body/Dusk gloves/Byakko/Usu feet is the build I'm talking about. You don't need to use rose for that.

 Valefor.Argettio
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Argettio
Posts: 559
By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-05 03:59:40  
Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
Cause both the builds I'm talking about are 5 hit polearms without having to mess with rose strap. Ace's/Usu body/Dusk gloves/Byakko/Usu feet is the build I'm talking about. You don't need to use rose for that.

Ah I was looking at the Hauby build on the other page, which was down 6sTP, which will break the true 5hit (and possibly make a psuedo 5hit impossible).

In that case its pretty damn close.

Edit: Some maths

4STR, 4 ATT (7attack if you inc the attack from STR) and 2.5 acc vs 1% haste.

This is very close to the Turban vs Askar debate with the exception of the 4 attack.

Now the maths between Askar and Turban is all over the place so I won’t redo it all (frankly I don’t have time), but the difference is small (I think we can all agree there) and normally the ‘finishing move’ for the turban supporters is ‘you should be using pizza any way’ thus removing the need for any of the accuracy, which is the one thing Askar has going for it.

Obviously when the aim is a meat build on a mob where pizza doesn’t work (unless you’re a billionaire) then the accuracy can not be discounted in the same way as it can for most normal situations.

IIRC a full Usukane gets you to 93% if you can ride Hasso full time, so that 91.75 % for the mix and match set, so the 2.5% accuracy is 1.36% increase in DoT and WS frequency.

4STR is 1fSTR which will be ~1% increase in DoT. Now off the top of my head know the TP:WS ratio for a polearm SAM (any clues), but I will assume 60:40 (aka GKT SAM). So the 1 fSTR is 0.4% global damage.

The 1% haste is 2.8% increase in DoT and WS frequency (assuming 65% base haste).

The 7 attack is going to be harder to estimate. But it needs give at least a 1% increase in global damage then the Ace’s set will win. To give a 1% increase to global damage it needs to give a 2.5% increase in DoT. So you will only get 1% increase from 7 attack if your base attack is 280 or lower (7/0.025 = 280).

So it looks like (unless I missed something) the Ace’s set would be ~0.5-0.8% better. Although the TP:WS split was a guess, and if that changes then it would affect the results a little bit (More DoT favors Usukane, more WS favors Aces')
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1419
By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-05-05 05:21:14  
Yeah Tiger estimated that the ace's set would win and by roughly 0.5%. Which is about what you got as well.

So we know Full Usu is viable at birds, but are there any other areas Sams should be using that set?

The way I see it it's:

Can you eat food?

Yes--> use mixed set (read:Walmart/dusk/byakko)

No--> Do you have an ace's? No--> use full Usu
Yes--> use mixed set

 Valefor.Argettio
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Argettio
Posts: 559
By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-05 06:11:38  
That's pretty much it if you are only looking at pure damage dealing potential.

Usukane does have some defensive stats (evasion and counter) and subtle blows so it is good for fighting (tanking) mobs where TP it and issue or where you can evade/counter. But in that situation you would probably be better off being on MNK.
 Sylph.Merow
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: geefresh
Posts: 47
By Sylph.Merow 2010-05-05 08:00:21  
The Huaby build on the other page isn't technically a 5 hit build because you return like 19.2 tp per hit or something like that but its a 5hit if you consider penta being the first hit. It would be a true 5 hit with usu body instead of hauby but like I said before I don't have usu body yet so I just didn't include it. And we aren't looking at the defensive stats of usu this was purely about which will do more damage and besides sam can make alot better defensive sets than full usu.
 Valefor.Argettio
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Argettio
Posts: 559
By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-05 08:18:33  
Sylph.Merow said:
The Huaby build on the other page isn't technically a 5 hit build because you return like 19.2 tp per hit or something like that but its a 5hit if you consider penta being the first hit. It would be a true 5 hit with usu body instead of hauby but like I said before I don't have usu body yet so I just didn't include it. And we aren't looking at the defensive stats of usu this was purely about which will do more damage and besides sam can make alot better defensive sets than full usu.

On birds true x hits beat 'fake' x hits by a pretty big margin, although its difficult to work out how much as feather tickle is pretty random.

And no doubt full usukane isn't a very strong defence build, but it doesn't sacrifice as much DD capability as full darksteel (or what ever the DRG and SAM PDT gear is called). I was just trying to come up with something SAM could use full usukane for (clutching at straws)
 Sylph.Merow
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: geefresh
Posts: 47
By Sylph.Merow 2010-05-05 08:29:23  
Well ofcourse a true 5 hit build will beat it but your shooting down builds that are perfectly fine to use unless you expect all sams to have usu body. If you are in a good birds party you really don't even see feather tickle that much anyway. I have parsed against plenty of full usu sams on birds and beaten them with my set up.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1419
By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-05-05 08:41:18  
We're not really shooting the other sets down. We're just saying they're not the optimal sets to use.

If you had access to full usu you'd probably still beat those other sams, because what you're describing is playing style.

 Valefor.Argettio
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Argettio
Posts: 559
By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-05 09:21:22  
As Blindphleb said, we were talking about the best possible gear sets, and Usu body is needed for that build.

Your SAM is solid and I am sure with a good player behind it could do some serious damage, but I think we both would agree that you could do more damage with Usu body?
 Sylph.Merow
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: geefresh
Posts: 47
By Sylph.Merow 2010-05-05 09:31:21  
Yeah I agree lol
 Leviathan.Thornyy
Offline
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Eriuddo
Posts: 145
By Leviathan.Thornyy 2010-05-05 17:35:01  
Byakkos + dusk + aces = 12% haste 15 dex 5 attack 7 acc 4 str
usu x3 = 5 dex 8 str 17 acc 10 attack 11% haste
eliminate like factors

1 haste 10 dex
vs
4 str 10 acc 5 attack

10 dex = 7.5 acc so

1 haste
vs
4 str 2.5 acc 5 attack

At birds haste and marches are a given, so you're looking at ~2.5% tp/ws damage from 1 haste, while 4 str and 8 attack is around 3.1% tp damage and the acc is about 1.5% tp/ws damage. You're comparing 2.1% tp damage to 1% ws damage. It's pretty much a wash with NQ dusk gloves, but with HQ mix and match wins by a decent margin. Granted, this is just meat builds, which are inferior by default.

Of course, you can always do crab sushi with:

Tomoe/Pole/XX/Wtath
W.turban/Chiv/Brutal/Hollow
Usukane/Dusk(+1)/Rajas/Ecphoria
Cuch/Velocious/Haidate/Fuma(Dusk+1)

and maintain capped accuracy with a fair chunk more haste. The obvious downside here is attack during WS from food, but you can sacrifice acc and use things like Usu Legs/Cerb+1/Gnadgad's over Byakko's/Cuch/Ace's on WS to compensate. Provided you have dia2 and either minx2 or chaos roll, this build will beat both of the proposed meat ones. If you get feather tickled, macro on Usu Feet.
 Bahamut.Paragonx
Offline
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: paragonx
Posts: 25
By Bahamut.Paragonx 2010-05-06 07:56:00  
Sylph.Kimble said:
Town is one thing, I mean, I see a lot SAMs using it during battle >_>.
maybe they sold all their other gear to get 5/5 and now they are gearless other than full Usukan lol.
 Bismarck.Dracondria
Offline
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33977
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-05-06 10:04:07  
Because you can sell Byakko's Haidate >_>
 Asura.Shambo
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Shambo
Posts: 172
By Asura.Shambo 2010-05-06 10:27:49  
Sylph.Kozuki said:

???? :(


show the other side of your face
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Vegetto
Posts: 15041
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-06 10:29:03  
Bahamut.Paragonx said:
Sylph.Kimble said:
Town is one thing, I mean, I see a lot SAMs using it during battle >_>.
maybe they sold all their other gear to get 5/5 and now they are gearless other than full Usukan lol.
What?

Turban/usu body/dusk/byakko/usu shoes. The only one of those you can even sell is dusk gloves. Two of them you have already from having full usu.