Message From The Admins

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Message From the Admins
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:33:50  
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.

Why is this any different?

The post has nothing to do with his (Flion's) moderation. Only something that somehow was conceived and irrelevant to everything. It's harassing a poster who was banned publicly with no way of defending himself. The thread never needed to be made. It could have been any mod, any poster, anything and it still should not be there.

Krizz, nor any mod or any human, is infallible. We're questioning the judgment that is being made by letting the thread stay posted.
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By Nevill 2011-11-03 18:34:53  
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-03 18:35:00  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.

Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.
Because Mods =! Users. They adhere to a different set of rules. End of story.
 Ramuh.Sagittario
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By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:35:06  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Figured you would, posted anyway. Regardless,
Ramuh.Sagittario said: »
Man you are blowing this way out of proportion Proth. It doesn't even concern you or anyone else.
Correct, so why in the name of *** was it posted to begin with? Banning Flion and Sevourn was moderation. That is not being contested. The ensuing thread was unnecessary.

Now now watch that language /wags finger.

I can see your point but given the harassment and the user in question, it was appropriate action, IMO. You just need to look at his volatile history and the lengths he went to making sure he won an internet argument to know he will try and do something pathetic. I very much doubt the same action would be taken on a threat like that from 99% of the user base. He is a victim of his own doing.
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:35:13  
Krizz, thanks for the contribution, but as we're trying to clear the air between a few cliques of users it might be best if I take point on the thread.

Guys, this thread isn't an invitation to bring up past inconsistencies. You don't need to convince me that they've happened. I thought my initial post was pretty clear in that regard.

I need everyone to take a step back, and breathe. If you can't do that, and feel the need to simply air out details of your personal disagreements with other folks just because there's now an audience, then I need you to take it elsewhere.
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 Carbuncle.Lolserj
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By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-11-03 18:35:29  
guess i'll post my opinion on the matter
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By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:36:47  
Ramuh.Vinvv said: »
Psycho Slip said: »
Cerberus.Savannah said: »
Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?

You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.

It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore.
Want to say it, but don't.. Want to say it, but don't.

*** it, of course you would instantly jump to Krizz's defense. No one is saying Flion is our God, I don't even know why you felt the need to throw in the daddy part, but THERE is something to talk about, because the second anyone posted a thread about a PM they got (and he saw it), Krizz would shut it down, the second someone posted about a PM they got in an already existing thread, Krizz would shut it down, the second they made a thread about some BS drama with another user, Krizz would shut it down.

Yet because he's a mod he's just allowed to do that.
So you want a thread that is doomed to die in thread hell to be deleted just to appease your "IT'S NOT FAIR" complaints?
refer to this:
Not sure how you gather that from what I said, but to avoid the ridiculous argument, yes, yes I do.

What I really want is people in authoritative positions to set examples rather than use the "Do what I say, not what I do" approach. If it's unacceptable for a regular user to do it, then it should be unacceptable for a mod to do it as well.

I couldn't make a preemptive thread (I probably couldn't even make a post-fallout one) and post PMs someone sent to me to "save my character from damage" or whatever you want to call it, so why is it acceptable for a mod to?
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:37:24  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.

Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.
Because Mods =! Users. They adhere to a different set of rules. End of story.

This is not how the world works. Jaerik asked pleasantly so I'm going to stop, pointless anyway. Zealots will be zealots, blind until the end.
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:37:42  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Because it's what users have requested.

We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.

This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.
 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:39:49  
Psycho Slip said: »
Not sure how you gather that from what I said, but to avoid the ridiculous argument, yes, yes I do.

What I really want is people in authoritative positions to set examples rather than use the "Do what I say, not what I do" approach. If it's unacceptable for a regular user to do it, then it should be unacceptable for a mod to do it as well.

I couldn't make a preemptive thread (I probably couldn't even make a post-fallout one) and post PMs someone sent to me to "save my character from damage" or whatever you want to call it, so why is it acceptable for a mod to?

Because it's not the same thing as posting a thread and locking it right away, you can't do that last time I checked. :D
Quote:
Can you ban users?
Can you make posts explaining your bans of users?
The answer is no for both.
So you wouldn't really have as much of a point to make that post and would have made it strictly for dramas sake adding to that you can't lock posts either so it would become a possible posting frenzy.

Past that...I'm not sure if I meant to respond to your post directly looking back now. I do apologize. :3
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:39:49  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Because it's what users have requested.

We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.

This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.

Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done.
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:39:54  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Because it's what users have requested.

We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.

This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.

The whole point was the thread had nothing to do with why he got banned.

I'm done now. Agreeing with Proth.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-03 18:40:15  
Cerberus.Savannah said: »
If you don't like the rules...don't post.

If you don't like the moderation...don't do something stupid that's going to get you in trouble. Send a PM to a mod/admin and they'll review whatever the issue is.

If you don't like another player...block them.

Ta~da. Everyone's happy.
I don't know how that got you to "everyone's happy". The system should be designed to support a healthy environment, not create an evidently widespread feeling that people need to walk on eggshells to avoid moderation. That benefits certain posting attitudes/archetypes, but is overall detrimental to the community. The value of the "blacklist" function is dependent on your reasons for posting in the first place. I've tried it on various forums and frequently found it useless between quoted posts and occasionally wanting to read a post for one reason or another. However, I almost exclusively use forums as a means of exchanging information; social posters can block with minimal loss.

I'm tl;dring everything past Jaerik's second post on the first page, so forgive me if I've missed anything of importance. I'm not a fan of topicbans as an early choice of moderation in "grey" cases. In situations where there is a clear intent to disrupt I understand its use, but less inflammatory negative voices should perhaps see a greater focus on discouraging first and silencing second. If there's a consistent pattern of behind-the-scenes action then obviously feel free to disregard this, but I feel like the ease with which topicbans can end problems within a thread and perhaps bring a problematic user in check for a time has gotten a little too attractive. It's understandable given the circumstances of moderation, but not something I particularly like to see regardless of my opinion of the poster in question provided there may be something to gain from them not being topicbanned.

This is not particularly relevant to the gigantic threads mentioned previously, which isn't surprising since I'm not really active in them, but I wanted to mention it.

EDIT: Woah, two pages since I started drafting this post. Lot of heat in here I guess. I will say that I don't like the nature of the topic that appears to be the current point of contention, but I also understand the intent given Flion's M.O. It would likely have come up regardless.

EDIT2: I also realize that some users will not be pleased and there's nothing to be done about it. Can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, and the displeased users are fairly vocal ones right now. I do think there are improvements to be made, however.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard
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By Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard 2011-11-03 18:40:24  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.

Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.


Really? Yes. That's exactly it. You do not get to post threads like that. It's simple. Nobody cares about you, or your drama. You have no power, and the things you say and do have no consequence.

A moderator, has power and responsibility. When someone attacks a moderator, he should have every right to defend those actions where people can see. Because he has power, and it's important for the people that respect such power to understand the reasons behind certain actions.

Would you want to hear about how some moderator "abused" his power and never bothered to explain? No. They're public figures on a website and people need to trust that the decisions they make in regards to punishments are correct.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-11-03 18:40:38  
Aww, I didn't earn a ban :(
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 Ramuh.Sagittario
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By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:41:35  
Tell me, those of you who are up in arms over this... if you are so against what has taken place regarding Flion, why was there an overwhelming support (including many of the names here) for the mods/admins when they used the exact same procedure against Vigor...?
 Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard
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By Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard 2011-11-03 18:41:43  
I think the website needs more rules. and more moderation.
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By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:41:43  
Bahamut.Serj said: »
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Because it's what users have requested.

We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.

This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.

The whole point was the thread had nothing to do with why he got banned.

I'm done now. Agreeing with Proth.
I'd like to sign my name under this as well.. You stay silent, nothing changes, even if this changes nothing, at least I've ~tried~ to get through. Done also.
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 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-03 18:41:52  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
This is not how the world works. Jaerik asked pleasantly so I'm going to stop, pointless anyway. Zealots will be zealots, blind until the end.
Last time I checked, we couldn't see the mod forum, temp ban, or give warnings to other users. Different rules.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:42:05  
Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.

Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.


Really? Yes. That's exactly it. You do not get to post threads like that. It's simple. Nobody cares about you, or your drama. You have no power, and the things you say and do have no consequence.

A moderator, has power and responsibility. When someone attacks a moderator, he should have every right to defend those actions where people can see. Because he has power, and it's important for the people that respect such power to understand the reasons behind certain actions.

Would you want to hear about how some moderator "abused" his power and never bothered to explain? No. They're public figures on a website and people need to trust that the decisions they make in regards to punishments are correct.

This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules?
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 Leviathan.Bimbam
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By Leviathan.Bimbam 2011-11-03 18:43:13  
Maybe all the people with beef could do something akin to the "Occupy Wall Street" nonsense by, idk... Occupying 4chan and ****ing off instead?
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 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:43:14  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules?
There's too many atheists about to be claiming God, Nancy.
;)
it's Jaerik-given virtue if anything.
 Fenrir.Didgist
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By Fenrir.Didgist 2011-11-03 18:44:05  
Bahamut.Serj said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.

Why is this any different?

The post has nothing to do with his (Flion's) moderation. Only something that somehow was conceived and irrelevant to everything. It's harassing a poster who was banned publicly with no way of defending himself. The thread never needed to be made. It could have been any mod, any poster, anything and it still should not be there.

Krizz, nor any mod or any human, is infallible. We're questioning the judgment that is being made by letting the thread stay posted.

This is where your boy says umad and derails 20 threads because you didn't agree with him on a topic he has no first rate experience with. The most insulting part is he is not even well developed player.

It was a good run, 23000 or whatever posts, I could see him and his entire clique spending more time trolling these threads than playing the game. This is more than evident in all of the gear they don't have.

This guy was so insulted by my insults that he went to the length of posting my name, age, and any other information he could get about me. You can't troll a troll now? Confused.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:44:12  
It was sarcasm, deal with it. In any case felt compelled to respond to that post. Made my brain start to bleed.
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:44:19  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done.
No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.

Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.
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 Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-11-03 18:44:25  
How is sending a PM to a user the same as sending a PM to a mod? Are you guys this naive? You're borderline HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you threaten a mod/admin and expect no recourse, why are you guys so worried about it?

Not saying I look at mods the same as penal officers but as an example action you take towards a citizen is not treated the same as a penal officer. No, it's not the same but there's an obvious hierarchy in place here contrary to what you people want to believe. No this isn't a community ruled by dictators where you have no rights but stop acting like stupid actions won't be combated differently when taken out on mods/admins vs users.

Not to mention all the discussion asking for that specific mod along with others to show more transparency in their actions. You think just because I don't oppose the post I love Krizz? Nah, I've had run ins with him he pissed me off several times and had to go cry about it to an admin because I was feeling butt hurt. The fact is you are all getting worked up over nothing.
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 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:45:44  
Fenrir.Didgist said: »
It was a good run, 23000 or whatever posts, I could see him and his entire clique spending more time trolling these threads than playing the game. This is more than evident in all of the gear they don't have.
/sigh
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:46:39  
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done.
No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.

Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.

Ok well thank you for that, and again I really don't care about the banning itself so much as how it was presented in that thread. It seems wholly unfair and is not easy to justify any part of the thread besides the reason that he was banned.

Carbuncle.Tweeek said: »
How is sending a PM to a user the same as sending a PM to a mod? Are you guys this naive? You're borderline HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you threaten a mod/admin and expect no recourse, why are you guys so worried about it?

Not saying I look at mods the same as penal officers but as an example action you take towards a citizen is not treated the same as a penal officer. No, it's not the same but there's an obvious hierarchy in place here contrary to what you people want to believe. No this isn't a community ruled by dictators where you have no rights but stop acting like stupid actions won't be combated differently when taken out on mods/admins vs users.

Not to mention all the discussion asking for that specific mod along with others to show more transparency in their actions. You think just because I don't oppose the post I love Krizz? Nah, I've had run ins with him he pissed me off several times and had to go cry about it to an admin because I was feeling butt hurt. The fact is you are all getting worked up over nothing.

Why does it have to be made public? If it was the sole reason that he was banned, fine. It does not seem like that is the case. There was moderation to be done. It was done. The rest was excess.
 Asura.Fondue
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By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:48:23  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »

Nobody is harassing Flionheart post-mortem bro, your friend threatened to blackmail a moderator of this website and clearly none of you have any problem reposting everything he says so it would have come out one way or another

dont be stupid man, every one of your last posts is taking this whole situation way out of hand over a completely justified removal of people from this website

such a dramaqueen lol
 Asura.Hit
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By Asura.Hit 2011-11-03 18:48:28  
Ramuh.Vinvv said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules?
There's too many atheists about to be claiming God, Nancy.
;)
it's Jaerik-given virtue if anything.

This is a sensationalist statement in the fact that not all the users will leave, probably just the stupid ones.
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