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Message From the Admins
Bahamut.Krizz
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3158
By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-11-03 17:50:55
What about those who didn't get a warning and flat out topic banned? One mod didn't touch the subject but when another walked by it they slapped the ban with out word. Sometimes mods overlook things, or even disagree. It's not uncommon to leave a topicban or deleted posts in place while we discuss it. If the decision is made to revoke the decision, we do so.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 17:51:57
Not going to say anything really, but I feel like this should be taken down... It's clearly an attack on Flion and shouldn't really be there..
I'm not going to say it's an attack, but it's clearly hypocritical and does not really deserve to be up.
Carbuncle.Tweeek
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 732
By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-11-03 17:52:11
Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3
Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM
not really the same at all.
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サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 17:52:35
Cerberus.Savannah said: »Not going to say anything really, but I feel like this should be taken down... It's clearly an attack on Flion and shouldn't really be there.. I don't see it like that honestly. If you actually read it, it is nothing more than clearing up a situation that Flion himself was preparing to start. Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report. Awesome movie btw :3
The fact that he is even acting like that towards Krizz is laughable and pathetic. Krizz is only covering his own back, because it seems Flion has all the time in the world to try and concoct some form of 'internet revenge' I mean come on get a life.
By Artemicion 2011-11-03 17:53:09
But it never happened. It was a personal message with intent that never went into fruition. You can't attack someone for their thoughts.
Even if there was legitimacy to it, the fact that it's via PMs means such a thread never should have been made; let alone publicized.
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サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 17:53:49
Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3
Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM
not really the same at all.
So does that mean that if I get a threatening PM I get to make a drama thread outside of the rules? Or do I not get to because I'm not a moderator?
If Krizz is comfortable with his standing he should have nothing to fear from someone with a PM.
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Ramuh.Krizz
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-11-03 17:54:26
Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3 I found out because he was already spreading the image around. Not to mention he TOLD ME that he would expose it. The focus of the post was the background story to the image, and the situation being discussed.
I did basically the same thing the day Dasva was banned. He threatened to expose a PM. I posted it in Ni or Random Thoughts. He responded, and Jaerik came in shortly afterwards and banned him.
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 17:55:26
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3
Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM
not really the same at all.
So does that mean that if I get a threatening PM I get to make a drama thread outside of the rules? Or do I not get to because I'm not a moderator?
If Krizz is comfortable with his standing he should have nothing to fear from someone with a PM. It's not like anyone can post on it.
I'd say he posted it due to transparency and clarification within the community. He respected you guys enough to actually tell you guys about it rather than going all cloak and dagger(which would be what I'd do as a moderator, cut and dry ;D). :/
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サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 17:56:41
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3
Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM
not really the same at all.
So does that mean that if I get a threatening PM I get to make a drama thread outside of the rules? Or do I not get to because I'm not a moderator?
If Krizz is comfortable with his standing he should have nothing to fear from someone with a PM. It's not like anyone can post on it.
And that makes it any different how? It's the type of thread that we're told not to post. Period.
Caitsith.Zahrah
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2011-11-03 17:56:50
/bites tongue
I should do this more. I feel bad now.
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 17:57:25
Valefor.Prothescar said: » Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report. Awesome movie btw :3 Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM not really the same at all. So does that mean that if I get a threatening PM I get to make a drama thread outside of the rules? Or do I not get to because I'm not a moderator? If Krizz is comfortable with his standing he should have nothing to fear from someone with a PM.
When somebody threatens to do something that will have a negative impact on you, you take steps to prevent it from happening. To not do this is leaving yourself open to damage and quite frankly, very stupid.
Cerberus.Savannah
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-11-03 17:57:37
I think half of you just feel like ganging up on Krizz for actually doing some moderating....
Just like when pics that bypass the filter get deleted, he automatically gets the blame for it.
Don't break the rules and you have nothing to worry about...it's that simple. I've had a pic deleted...I've had comments deleted...it happens. Shrug it off and try to post better next time. It's not hard.
Carbuncle.Tweeek
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 732
By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-11-03 17:57:43
What rule did Krizz break by posting that thread? Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see it as an attack at all. If someone believes it's an attack simply for the fact that the person being spoken of can not respond your definition of attack is flawed.
If that's not it, what is the rule being broken or what specific statement in that post is an attack?
iirc Jaerik had posted a PM of someone threatening the website a while back, seems like a similar situation to me.
By Artemicion 2011-11-03 17:57:51
I just don't think PM based blackmail needs to be addressed publicly by a new thread available for everyone to see.
If it gets thrown out there, it only threatens the credibility of those in accomplice with the said person banned more so than the need to "cover your tracks" or defend yourself.
To do so creates unnecessary perpetuation of drama you sought to advert in the first place. Rather self defeating in my opinion.
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 17:58:09
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Valefor.Prothescar said: »Yeah, but problems should be addressed as they come, not made preemptive before they even occur. Otherwise you get a lot of controversy similar to the whole "Precrime" concept from Minority Report.
Awesome movie btw :3
Flion sent me a PM threatening to expose a PM
not really the same at all.
So does that mean that if I get a threatening PM I get to make a drama thread outside of the rules? Or do I not get to because I'm not a moderator?
If Krizz is comfortable with his standing he should have nothing to fear from someone with a PM. It's not like anyone can post on it.
And that makes it any different how? It's the type of thread that we're told not to post. Period. I didn't know anything about it until it was brought up, what does that tell you?
Ramuh.Krizz
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-11-03 17:58:24
I was told the title of the thread was offensive, so I have changed it.
Phoenix.Sehachan
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 17:58:44
When somebody threatens to do something that will have a negative impact on you, you take steps to prevent it from happening. To not do this is leaving yourself open to damage and quite frankly, very stupid. Point is that everyone should be able to do it then. And this will lead to a lot of public dramas. We don't want that? Then Krizz shouldn't as well. Just that.
Asura.Hit
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 765
By Asura.Hit 2011-11-03 17:59:49
Keep up the good work guys, I for one respect what you do, and I love the site. It's an invaluable tool for the game.
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By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:00:24
When somebody threatens to do something that will have a negative impact on you, you take steps to prevent it from happening. To not do this is leaving yourself open to damage and quite frankly, very stupid. Point is that everyone should be able to do it then. And this will lead to a lot of public dramas. We don't want that? Then Krizz shouldn't as well. Just that. I'm afraid I have to agree with this.. I've never been a fan of "Do as I say, not as I do".
Valefor.Lieniite
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 364
By Valefor.Lieniite 2011-11-03 18:00:44
I find it laughable that some people here think Krizz is the bad guy for making that thread when all he was doing was nipping a problem in the bud before it blew out.
Let's be honest, we all know flion craved drama and is probably egging some of the nay-sayers on via other means, all the ban and thread did was take wind out of his sails, the sails of someone already banned for their ongoing stirring.
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:00:52
What rule did Krizz break by posting that thread? Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see it as an attack at all. If someone believes it's an attack simply for the fact that the person being spoken of can not respond your definition of attack is flawed. If that's not it, what is the rule being broken or what specific statement in that post is an attack? iirc Jaerik had posted a PM of someone threatening the website a while back, seems like a similar situation to me.
I think it was Vigor threatening to sue the site for damages or something ridiculous. Of course everybody found it hilarious because of his social standing as a complete nutter. The only reason this is different is because Flion has a little clique of followers who somehow think he does not fully deserve everything he is getting.
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サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:01:05
I find it concerning that so many people are willing to fall in line and accept it just because Krizz did it. I guarantee that if I were to post a similar thread tomorrow it would be locked or nuked as a "player warning".
- Player Warnings are no longer permitted. (This includes posting it in an already existing thread.)
Has this been appended?
Cerberus.Wojo
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 416
By Cerberus.Wojo 2011-11-03 18:02:24
(checks to see if he's banned)
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-11-03 18:02:42
If a user and I were involved in some sort of relationship where they acquired, say, naughty pics of me and the other user gets pissed at me for not saying "<3" at the end of a PM to the point where they're threatening to post my naughty naughty pics, or they're spreading it around via PM, I would alert the mod/admin crew.
What's the difference? Someone would temp ban that user; is it really such an issue that Krizz didn't ask another mod to temp ban?
Or am I not understanding the issue.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:03:01
Why the *** does the public have to know about it to begin with? You're a moderator, you take care of it yourself. What are we going to do about it? If people are willing to listen to Flion to begin with when/if he attacks you, odds are their opinion of you is already sour. The thread changes nothing.
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Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:03:20
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I find it concerning that so many people are willing to fall in line and accept it just because Krizz did it. I guarantee that if I were to post a similar thread tomorrow it would be locked or nuked as a "player warning".
- Player Warnings are no longer permitted. (This includes posting it in an already existing thread.)
Has this been appended? Not of a matter of accepting or not accepting. I just don't care...him deleting it just so you can save face on something that happened already seems silly...if it happens again, by all means go at it...but eh.
Digging up the past is all it seems like to me.
By Artemicion 2011-11-03 18:03:21
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
We've had to do some painfully subjective bans over the past few days. I say painful because they are bans that were made due to cumulative, subjective issues with certain users over months and years, and not single infractions that broke the camel's back. (So to speak.)
These are always extremely difficult calls to make, and by our internal policies can only be made by an admin -- not a mod -- because they're a subjective judgement call made for the health of the site and not due to violations of any particular forum rule.
These events are extremely rare. In the entire site's ~5 year history, I can count the number of these bans we have made on one hand. This is because making bans for subjective reasons that aren't backed up by specific rule infractions harm the users' overall perception of our integrity and consistency. If we can nuke some guy for no specific reason, what's to say that you aren't next?
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Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Honestly, this is expected: the people who are sane enough to understand the nature of the position and the thankless level of responsibility are typically too sane to accept the offer.
Being a moderator is thankless, strenuous, and altogether pretty awful. The fact you only appear out of the woodwork when something has gone wrong, plus general human mental quirks around confirmation bias, means that the more you do your job, the more you will inevitably become associated with being the bad guy. You must constantly fight this perception, and it requires skill, diplomacy, training, and a certain level of self-critical diligence and effort that is often unreasonable to expect from volunteers.
I have gotten a lot of feedback about heavy-handedness among some of our moderation staff, and you'll just have to trust that I have taken it to heart. But I believe all of our moderators are doing the best job they can within the limitations of the rules we have imposed upon them. We need to work on consistency and avoiding the perception of favoritism. When favoritism appears to occur, users can't always be expected to give us the benefit of the doubt and understand there is almost always non-public, extenuating circumstances that have caused it.
I ask that you believe me when I say that we're working on it.
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That being said:
Users need to understand that our mods are limited in their powers. They cannot perform perma-bans, nor temp-bans without providing lengthy documentation and evidence. Even then, there are typically threads about the user in the Moderator forum that involve every mod, and every admin, and frequently run to many pages before a decision is made. Just about the only decision a moderator is allowed to make in a vacuum is a topic ban, and even then, I'm pushing towards using them less and less as a disciplinary tool in general.
Why do I tell you this? Because I get a lot of complaints about a single moderator, attributing blatant, dictatorial, vengeance-driven behavior and permanent, ruthless disciplinary action that they simply do not have the power to take even if they wanted to. This tends to make me skeptical and dismissive of the overall claims even if there are nuggets of truth buried in there, because I start to distrust the reliability and intentions of the messenger.
We site admins have a famously low tolerance for drama. We have no interest whatsoever in investigating who said what to who, who exaggerated what about what situation, who has an agenda against which user clique, who's spreading rumors about what relationship, or any of that.
We run a FFXI and FFXIV gaming site, of which the forums are one small component of the overall operation. There isn't enough you could pay any of us to keep track of all that drama, and if you try and play games with the moderators or admins based on any of it, the admins are quite likely to just advise nuking every affected party so we don't have to waste our available free time and precious sanity tracking down who's saying what about who. That's time and effort we could be spending on making the site more useful for everyone else.
This isn't me being mean, or lazy, or dismissive. This is practical reality. We aren't on these forums all day like you guys. We simply can't keep up. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And that's just the admins! Moderators are all volunteer, so they have even less of a reason to do so. Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't all told us to go to hell by now.
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This means that if we end up getting a group of users who are consistently the source of reams upon reams of stacked-up drama every time we visit the site... users who consistently tiptoe right up to the edge of the rules and then fill our Inboxes with reports, complaints, bizarre-ass interpersonal drama about relationships and stalking and disagreements and sniping, etc, eventually an admin (like me) is just going to make the call to nuke them just to keep us all sane. It simply isn't worth it.
There is a cut-off of diminishing returns such that your contributions to the forum are not worth the sheer effort it takes to keep you around. It's nothing personal. No harm, no foul. There's the door.
I've recently made this call about two elder users. Banning Sevourn and Flionheart was my call -- not our moderators' -- so you can stop sending me PM's alleging forty different drama-filled conspiratorial interpersonal narratives about how or why a certain moderator would have done so. You just make yourself look like part of the problem.
Like I said, the number of bans we've made like this in the half-decade the site has been around can be counted on one hand. In both cases, the record of warnings, topic bans, temp bans, perma-bans-and-pardons, etc number several pages of text in the user's account notes.
So please do not freak out that suddenly the red-barred ban hammer is going to come down on your head with zero warning. We don't operate that way. And we're not going to start flipping out and banning people out of sheer frustration alone.
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But you need to realize that the smooth operation of this site is a partnership. I need my mods to be consistent, polite, diplomatic, and patient. If they aren't doing that, I still need to know. Please continue to report your concerns. Your feedback is always taken to heart, even if it's just tucked away into a corner of the admins' heads for future consideration and does not result in immediately action until I get enough consistent complaints to make a case.
But I need my users to avoid twisting themselves into impossibly complex, nasty Gordion Knot relationships, while engaging in moderator-backed efforts to destroy one another's reputation and credibility, and then running to an admin when it blows up in your face. It's important that we all establish realistic expectations of what we can expect from you, and what you can expect from us.
Everyone needs to take a few steps away, and breathe.
Thanks.
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