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Message From the Admins
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:49:06
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Valefor.Prothescar said: »Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done. No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such. Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore. Ok well thank you for that, and again I really don't care about the banning itself so much as how it was presented in that thread. It seems wholly unfair and is not easy to justify any part of the thread besides the reason that he was banned.
Still waiting on those who share this view to respond to my previous post. I am very very interested to hear what you have to say.
Tell me, those of you who are up in arms over this... if you are so against what has taken place regarding Flion, why was there an overwhelming support (including many of the names here) for the mods/admins when they used the exact same procedure against Vigor...?
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:49:14
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Nobody is harassing Flionheart post-mortem bro, your friend threatened to blackmail a moderator of this website and clearly none of you have any problem reposting everything he says so it would have come out one way or another
dont be stupid man, every one of your last posts is taking this whole situation way out of hand over a completely justified removal of people from this website
such a dramaqueen lol
You are one of the most ignorant people I've ever seen in my life. Read my damn posts a little more carefully next time.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:49:40
For those attempting to stand by the admins and say they are simply above the rules, so everyone needs to just deal: that is not true.
I do not teach my mods that they are above the rules, and if they ever imply as such, we need to talk. So thank you for the attempted backup, but you're not helping.
FAR more often, the mods are simply not capable of reading every post, examining every complaint, observing every PM, and mediating every dispute.
They are human beings and only capable of evaluating and responding to the information that is within their sphere of observation, and making their best attempt at remaining consistent within that sphere. That is all we can ask of them.
This often means that posts get removed in page 1679 but are not removed in page 1611 even though they're basically the same post. People read into this and spin long drama-filled narratives to explain away the favoritism that they perceive, when there's almost always a much more simple explanation.
There have been violations of this consistency and we are working on it. Dredging them up again when I've already fallen on my sword multiple times and promised to improve it doesn't help anyone.
But the point of my original post is that this forum is a partnership. We need to be consistent, polite, and professional from our end. We have improvements to make in this regard.
But by the same token, you guys need to step back and breathe, because a lot of the perceived drama, favoritism, and he-said-she-said stuff that's going on is just overblown and not within the prevue of either the admins or mods to follow.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-03 18:49:51
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Valefor.Prothescar said: »Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done. No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.
Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.
Ok well thank you for that, and again I really don't care about the banning itself so much as how it was presented in that thread. It seems wholly unfair and is not easy to justify any part of the thread besides the reason that he was banned. I mentioned this in one of my edits (which, given the pace of this thread, is likely to be missed). Flion had a habit of dragging ***out into the open. I can easily recall a couple of cases where he posted PMs without context, nevermind the other info he gathered on people. If he really wanted this out in the open it would have happened eventually regardless, but in a much uglier fashion. Or maybe not if there's really that much backlash in here, idk.
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:50:02
Valefor.Prothescar said: »This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules? There's too many atheists about to be claiming God, Nancy.
;)
it's Jaerik-given virtue if anything.
This is a sensationalist statement in the fact that not all the users will leave, probably just the stupid ones. I think people come and go either way and they don't leave in droves because of anything done on FFXIAH...more likely SE would be the reason people leave in droves if anything lol.
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サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:50:30
For those attempting to stand by the admins and say they are simply above the rules, so you guys need to deal with it: that is not true.
I do not teach my mods that they are above the rules, and if they ever imply as such, we need to talk. So thank you for the attempted backup, but you're not helping.
FAR more often, the mods are simply not capable of reading every post, examining every complaint, observing every PM, and mediating every dispute.
They are human beings and only capable of evaluating and responding to the information that is within their sphere of observation, and making their best attempt at remaining consistent within that sphere. That is all we can ask of them.
This often means that posts get removed in page 1679 but are not removed in page 1611 even though they're basically the same post. People read into this and spin long drama-filled narratives to explain away the favoritism that they perceive, when there's almost always a much more simple explanation.
There have been violations of this consistency and we are working on it. Dredging them up again when I've already fallen on my sword multiple times and promised to improve it doesn't help anyone.
Sir, moderation is not being disputed. It's fully understood, by myself anyway, how moderation works and the limitations and whatever else the argument is being misconstrued as. My qualm was with the presentation of the thread in question. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, I will reiterate for those who seem to have trouble reading full posts for the hundredth time: I am not sympathizing with Flion. It could have been anyone.
Ragnarok.Neonracer
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Ragnarok.Neonracer 2011-11-03 18:50:44
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.
Why is this any different?
Exaclty what I said above. Nothing is different here.
By Nevill 2011-11-03 18:52:09
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered.
Asura.Fondue
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2446
By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:53:33
Valefor.Prothescar said: »You are one of the most ignorant people I've ever seen in my life. Read my damn posts a little more carefully next time. surely you can delve that from my 3 posts in this thread
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:54:05
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. Because for the most part it still follows their previous modus operandi.
also, he did answer it, just not directly to you:
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done. No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.
Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-03 18:54:16
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. The memory of the thread still exists and can be communicated, that wouldn't solve anything.
By Nevill 2011-11-03 18:55:03
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. The memory of the thread still exists and can be communicated, that wouldn't solve anything.
Yes it would. People are arguing that the thread shouldn't be there. delete it and it won't be there.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:55:16
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. It's a fair enough request. I've nuked the thread.
I still do not disagree with its posting, as posts explaining bans were specifically requested by users.
But it seems this thread more than covers for it anyway.
Asura.Braego
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 338
By Asura.Braego 2011-11-03 18:55:39
Cause and Effect people... It's not hard to understand.
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Carbuncle.Valmur
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 25
By Carbuncle.Valmur 2011-11-03 18:55:45
Prob should just lock this, went stale 5 pages ago
By Nevill 2011-11-03 18:56:17
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. It's a fair enough request. I've nuked the thread.
I still do not disagree with its posting, as posts explaining bans were specifically requested by users.
But it seems this thread more than covers for it anyway.
That's fine; as I said, I don't care that it was there. But it is causing drama, and we like a drama-less environment.
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:56:19
Quick someone make sphere of observation a MEEM image!
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:56:45
Prob should just lock this, went stale 5 pages ago I'm inclined to agree.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:57:22
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
I quote this because it has not been answered. It's a fair enough request. I've nuked the thread.
I still do not disagree with its posting, as posts explaining bans were specifically requested by users.
But it seems this thread more than covers for it anyway.
Apologies if for some reason my argument wasn't clear; the problem wasn't that the thread told why Flion was banned, it was the unnecessary drama bits.
In any case thank you for your time and understanding on this matter.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6470
By Fenrir.Stiklelf 2011-11-03 18:58:18
Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Just wondering J man, what qualifications do you look for? :O
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サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-03 18:58:23
I agree with Prothescar in that the thread went far beyond simply explaining why he was banned, though again I don't necessarily think it inappropriate given the circumstances.
Prob should just lock this, went stale 5 pages ago Agreed. This will go nowhere right now, let things cool off.
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:58:56
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument? I quote this because it has not been answered. It's a fair enough request. I've nuked the thread. I still do not disagree with its posting, as posts explaining bans were specifically requested by users. But it seems this thread more than covers for it anyway. Apologies if for some reason my argument wasn't clear; the problem wasn't that the thread told why Flion was banned, it was the unnecessary drama bits. In any case thank you for your time and understanding on this matter.
I'm guessing the reason you won't answer my post is because you can't?
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:59:16
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument? I quote this because it has not been answered. It's a fair enough request. I've nuked the thread. I still do not disagree with its posting, as posts explaining bans were specifically requested by users. But it seems this thread more than covers for it anyway. Apologies if for some reason my argument wasn't clear; the problem wasn't that the thread told why Flion was banned, it was the unnecessary drama bits. In any case thank you for your time and understanding on this matter.
I'm guessing the reason you won't answer my post is because you can't?
It's because I'm ignoring you.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:59:35
I agree with Prothescar in that the thread went far beyond simply explaining why he was banned, though again I don't necessarily think it inappropriate given the circumstances.
Prob should just lock this, went stale 5 pages ago Agreed. This will go nowhere right now, let things cool off. It sounds like we're all on the same page, then.
Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and offering your input. I appreciate it.
We've had to do some painfully subjective bans over the past few days. I say painful because they are bans that were made due to cumulative, subjective issues with certain users over months and years, and not single infractions that broke the camel's back. (So to speak.)
These are always extremely difficult calls to make, and by our internal policies can only be made by an admin -- not a mod -- because they're a subjective judgement call made for the health of the site and not due to violations of any particular forum rule.
These events are extremely rare. In the entire site's ~5 year history, I can count the number of these bans we have made on one hand. This is because making bans for subjective reasons that aren't backed up by specific rule infractions harm the users' overall perception of our integrity and consistency. If we can nuke some guy for no specific reason, what's to say that you aren't next?
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Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Honestly, this is expected: the people who are sane enough to understand the nature of the position and the thankless level of responsibility are typically too sane to accept the offer.
Being a moderator is thankless, strenuous, and altogether pretty awful. The fact you only appear out of the woodwork when something has gone wrong, plus general human mental quirks around confirmation bias, means that the more you do your job, the more you will inevitably become associated with being the bad guy. You must constantly fight this perception, and it requires skill, diplomacy, training, and a certain level of self-critical diligence and effort that is often unreasonable to expect from volunteers.
I have gotten a lot of feedback about heavy-handedness among some of our moderation staff, and you'll just have to trust that I have taken it to heart. But I believe all of our moderators are doing the best job they can within the limitations of the rules we have imposed upon them. We need to work on consistency and avoiding the perception of favoritism. When favoritism appears to occur, users can't always be expected to give us the benefit of the doubt and understand there is almost always non-public, extenuating circumstances that have caused it.
I ask that you believe me when I say that we're working on it.
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That being said:
Users need to understand that our mods are limited in their powers. They cannot perform perma-bans, nor temp-bans without providing lengthy documentation and evidence. Even then, there are typically threads about the user in the Moderator forum that involve every mod, and every admin, and frequently run to many pages before a decision is made. Just about the only decision a moderator is allowed to make in a vacuum is a topic ban, and even then, I'm pushing towards using them less and less as a disciplinary tool in general.
Why do I tell you this? Because I get a lot of complaints about a single moderator, attributing blatant, dictatorial, vengeance-driven behavior and permanent, ruthless disciplinary action that they simply do not have the power to take even if they wanted to. This tends to make me skeptical and dismissive of the overall claims even if there are nuggets of truth buried in there, because I start to distrust the reliability and intentions of the messenger.
We site admins have a famously low tolerance for drama. We have no interest whatsoever in investigating who said what to who, who exaggerated what about what situation, who has an agenda against which user clique, who's spreading rumors about what relationship, or any of that.
We run a FFXI and FFXIV gaming site, of which the forums are one small component of the overall operation. There isn't enough you could pay any of us to keep track of all that drama, and if you try and play games with the moderators or admins based on any of it, the admins are quite likely to just advise nuking every affected party so we don't have to waste our available free time and precious sanity tracking down who's saying what about who. That's time and effort we could be spending on making the site more useful for everyone else.
This isn't me being mean, or lazy, or dismissive. This is practical reality. We aren't on these forums all day like you guys. We simply can't keep up. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And that's just the admins! Moderators are all volunteer, so they have even less of a reason to do so. Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't all told us to go to hell by now.
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This means that if we end up getting a group of users who are consistently the source of reams upon reams of stacked-up drama every time we visit the site... users who consistently tiptoe right up to the edge of the rules and then fill our Inboxes with reports, complaints, bizarre-ass interpersonal drama about relationships and stalking and disagreements and sniping, etc, eventually an admin (like me) is just going to make the call to nuke them just to keep us all sane. It simply isn't worth it.
There is a cut-off of diminishing returns such that your contributions to the forum are not worth the sheer effort it takes to keep you around. It's nothing personal. No harm, no foul. There's the door.
I've recently made this call about two elder users. Banning Sevourn and Flionheart was my call -- not our moderators' -- so you can stop sending me PM's alleging forty different drama-filled conspiratorial interpersonal narratives about how or why a certain moderator would have done so. You just make yourself look like part of the problem.
Like I said, the number of bans we've made like this in the half-decade the site has been around can be counted on one hand. In both cases, the record of warnings, topic bans, temp bans, perma-bans-and-pardons, etc number several pages of text in the user's account notes.
So please do not freak out that suddenly the red-barred ban hammer is going to come down on your head with zero warning. We don't operate that way. And we're not going to start flipping out and banning people out of sheer frustration alone.
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But you need to realize that the smooth operation of this site is a partnership. I need my mods to be consistent, polite, diplomatic, and patient. If they aren't doing that, I still need to know. Please continue to report your concerns. Your feedback is always taken to heart, even if it's just tucked away into a corner of the admins' heads for future consideration and does not result in immediately action until I get enough consistent complaints to make a case.
But I need my users to avoid twisting themselves into impossibly complex, nasty Gordion Knot relationships, while engaging in moderator-backed efforts to destroy one another's reputation and credibility, and then running to an admin when it blows up in your face. It's important that we all establish realistic expectations of what we can expect from you, and what you can expect from us.
Everyone needs to take a few steps away, and breathe.
Thanks.
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